tarkusnj
400 Club - QQ All-Star
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Welcome Back My Friends Emerson, Lake and Palmer
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jimfisheye
2K Club - QQ Super Nova
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I do see the date here from 2008 
I remember a pretty stepped on copy making the rounds. It appeared to be a very challenged Q8 release to begin with and the mix might have been a little quick and awkward around the edges as well. The Q8 duplication quality was apparently as poor an example as can be found. And of course the studio 4.0 mix master (for good or bad) is lost. The copy I found making the rounds seemed to line up with all that. (All the defects.)
Is that about right?
I always wanted to try to start a restoration project around this but it would have been limited returns. At least with the copy making the rounds! Maybe it's possible that someone has a cleaner copy and that original project was just inexperienced work? My guess would be not but I'd like to be wrong!
I think I tried to mess with that unfinished and error riddled Jakko BSS mix instead which was also beyond any repair and a waste of time. What's still there is still there with this kind of stuff but the massive fidelity hit you still have in the best case is still so grating next to the professionally handled and preserved stereo copy that it just kills any ambition to work on it.
Better off to spend time listening to the remaining tracks from the 1st album and the Tarkus album in 5.1 from Steve Wilson. Then find a MFSL vinyl for Pictures.
I remember a pretty stepped on copy making the rounds. It appeared to be a very challenged Q8 release to begin with and the mix might have been a little quick and awkward around the edges as well. The Q8 duplication quality was apparently as poor an example as can be found. And of course the studio 4.0 mix master (for good or bad) is lost. The copy I found making the rounds seemed to line up with all that. (All the defects.)
Is that about right?
I always wanted to try to start a restoration project around this but it would have been limited returns. At least with the copy making the rounds! Maybe it's possible that someone has a cleaner copy and that original project was just inexperienced work? My guess would be not but I'd like to be wrong!
I think I tried to mess with that unfinished and error riddled Jakko BSS mix instead which was also beyond any repair and a waste of time. What's still there is still there with this kind of stuff but the massive fidelity hit you still have in the best case is still so grating next to the professionally handled and preserved stereo copy that it just kills any ambition to work on it.
Better off to spend time listening to the remaining tracks from the 1st album and the Tarkus album in 5.1 from Steve Wilson. Then find a MFSL vinyl for Pictures.
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I do see the date here from 2008
I remember a pretty stepped on copy making the rounds. It appeared to be a very challenged Q4 release to begin with and the mix might have been a little quick and awkward around the edges as well. The Q4 duplication quality was apparently as poor an example as can be found. And of course the studio 4.0 mix master (for good or bad) is lost. The copy I found making the rounds seemed to line up with all that. (All the defects.)
Is that about right?
Not too much.
WBMF was released only on Q8, not Q4, and had serious duplication issues on all Tape 2 due to bad duplication - some bad, some worse. Add to that the rear channels are silent for at least 90% of the time and it's not worth any effort. Believe me, i have three full sets and i tried and gave up, and i'm not one that give up easily....
And i do like WBMF, back in the days i shelled out quite bucks for the first cd release of that, warts and all, and had it in all formats.
If you really want to spend some time on it, the best suggestion i can give to you is to use the funky quad release as a reference point about instrument placements on the rear channel (there isn't too much, but there are keys swirling around in some places) and with the current level of extraction software (specweb, spleeter and so on) or surround imagers (Involve etc...) generate stems and remix them following the blueprint of the quad. That's IMHO the only way to get something sounds decent and multichannel.
jimfisheye
2K Club - QQ Super Nova
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Brain glitch on the "Q4". I meant Q8.
Yeah, that's what I remember. The mix wasn't fully realized to begin with (the silent rears 90% of the time and all). And there was a worst of the worst example of duplication issues on this one on top of it. They must of just kind of phoned this one in with only a few of the quad keyboard pans to duplicate some of the live mix element from the tour.
This is sure an alluring title and not one to be given up on easily... I believe I know exactly how you feel there! Heh, that Spleeter app sounded like something that was going to be promising and interesting... Oh well. Another warbley wind chime artifact generator like all the rest. I want that 20 minutes of command line installing bs it took back!
thinking about these eight track cartridges makes you think that there must have been some 4 track copies made for the plant that made the dicey cartridges. Hmmm..
buzzkill! I can dream can't I?
I like dreams, it's all that keeps me going. Never stop dreaming, it just might come true.
yes , weirder things have happened. A good example I could give relates to some musician friends of mine in Boston. 20+ years ago, they stumbled into a niche where they travel the country to various film festivals and provide live accompaniment to specific silent films that are being shown. They've been performing the Metropolis movie for the better part of 25 years, and during that time they have gone from using an 80 minute print up to now using 2hours and 15 minute version, because archivists keep digging up prints from around the world that weren't carved up as all of the more common versions were.
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I know it's probably not much help at this point in time , but Silverline had this very album (possibly the Q4 master) on their soon to be released DVDA website around mid 2000 (2005 ?).
It wasn't on the official listings but in some information about what they were up to regarding their future products at the time.
At worst it could have been a stereo extrapolation for 5.1 , but I guess we'll never know . It is worth noting this was in the last years of their DVDA support program .
Perhaps someone who was employed by Silverline/Immergent , or had insider information from them can clarify if indeed they had the Atlantic/Manticore Q4(Q4's) for this quad recording.
It wasn't on the official listings but in some information about what they were up to regarding their future products at the time.
At worst it could have been a stereo extrapolation for 5.1 , but I guess we'll never know . It is worth noting this was in the last years of their DVDA support program .
Perhaps someone who was employed by Silverline/Immergent , or had insider information from them can clarify if indeed they had the Atlantic/Manticore Q4(Q4's) for this quad recording.
Anyway , regardless of that post regarding Silverline/Immergent ; two people who MIGHT KNOW more about "Welcome Back My Friends..." album's quad master, could be the two who worked on their first 4 album's multitrack masters for DVDA surround
namely :
Steven Wilson(ELP, Tarkus , Trilogy)...and Jakko Jakszyk(BSS).
namely :
Steven Wilson(ELP, Tarkus , Trilogy)...and Jakko Jakszyk(BSS).
musicmemorabiliashoppellc
2K Club - QQ Super Nova
Definitely.....I've recently ordered the 2016 remaster of this....reviews are quite good.
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The same recordings that produced the Welcome Back album were also used to produce the ELP episode of the King Biscuit FM broadcast - ironically the KBFH mixes are actually better (less bathed in reverb) than what appeared on the LP.
Given that Silverline released loads of old KBFH recordings as part of their Live... From the Front Row series, I'd suspect that that's probably what that release would've been, but it probably (just guessing here) got blocked by ELP's legal team - you'd imagine that whatever the original contract was, it probably said something like "we get physical media rights, you get broadcast rights" so trying to release the 'radio mix' on CD or DVD was probably an infringement on their rights.
Obviously all the KBFH stuff was mixed in quad originally, and those tapes would've been ideal sources for Silverline's DVD-As, but it's my understanding that the warehouse that stored all the mixed masters had a fire in the early 80s and all those tapes were destroyed. Apparently some years later, the rights owners discovered that the multitrack tapes were stored elsewhere, and they had them all newly remixed in the late 80s or early 90s - that's why you see a flood of CD reissues of this material from this point onward that doesn't have the old SQ encoding, it's all new mixes.
Silverline, being the cheapskates they were, missed a real opportunity with their Live... series - instead of doing new 5.1 remixes from the same multis that were used for the new stereo mixes, they just took those new stereo mixes and upmixed them to fake 5.1. So I think if that ELP release did come out, it would be this flavour of lame "mix."
My memory is a little fuzzy, but I have some recollection that when one of those ELP box sets came out (Brain Salad Surgery maybe?) there was something in the liner notes from Jakko about how there were dozens (or hundreds) of different multitrack tapes for the project, and that at one point they were delivered quadraphonic live mixes of one of the tracks (I'm thinking it was Karn Evil 9, but again, memory fuzzy) which would suggest that they do have the quad masters for Welcome Back My Friends in their possession - maybe they aren't even aware of it, or don't care.
For me the whole thing is kind of moot, because it's such a damp squib of a quad mix, with the rears silent for huge portions of the recording. Given it was probably a 16 or 24 track recording, and Emerson's huge arsenal of keyboards, and Palmer's enormous drum kit, there was plenty of opportunity for them to make an exciting immersive mix, but they really hamstrung themselves by replicating the experience of the live quad PA.
I didn't know all the KBFW stuff was mixed in Quad, only some and within a certain period of time. I even recorded a few live in stereo in the mid 70's (Eric Clapton, EL&P & ZZ Top) on my Teac A-2340, and none seemed to be Quad encoded at least. I ran them through my SMv2, and didn't impress me as such.
Well Steely I've heard a copy of that Biscuit live recording and what I've heard was actually pretty decent in quad.
Was it sweetened by the individual to sound better than the Q8 ? Well possibly .
But I guess part of what I was trying to get across on the Silverline/Immergent version that never occurred , was that it was at a time when they were putting out some of their last DVDA 5.1 discs........the good ones........such as Richard Thompson Old Kit Bag , Pere Ubu - Modern Dance , Dar Williams etc.,............ so IF (and it's a big if) they could have and would have it would have been better than those Live From The Front Row terrible upmixes .
But yes your right it is kinda all moot now , but mostly because it never happened .
Also my fuzzy memory kinda tells me I read somewheres in a 70's magazine that that live quad recording was taken from the concert at Montreal's Olympic Stadium show.
I kinda remember that as it was the Montreal show , which at the time I found to be a bit of a surprise .
Now for all we know it could have been pieced together from different tour stops , but we'll never know unless it sees the light of day in a present surround format.
Thanks for the info though , it's fun to share .
Was it sweetened by the individual to sound better than the Q8 ? Well possibly .
But I guess part of what I was trying to get across on the Silverline/Immergent version that never occurred , was that it was at a time when they were putting out some of their last DVDA 5.1 discs........the good ones........such as Richard Thompson Old Kit Bag , Pere Ubu - Modern Dance , Dar Williams etc.,............ so IF (and it's a big if) they could have and would have it would have been better than those Live From The Front Row terrible upmixes .
But yes your right it is kinda all moot now , but mostly because it never happened .
Also my fuzzy memory kinda tells me I read somewheres in a 70's magazine that that live quad recording was taken from the concert at Montreal's Olympic Stadium show.
I kinda remember that as it was the Montreal show , which at the time I found to be a bit of a surprise .
Now for all we know it could have been pieced together from different tour stops , but we'll never know unless it sees the light of day in a present surround format.
Thanks for the info though , it's fun to share .
Yep , until sometime in 1978 I believe . But perhaps even a few later namely BEST OF's.
I think The QuadDiscography gives the end date or year. And the KBFH and British Biscuit would have been all broadcast in SQ matrix.
Fizzy, I was told by someone acquainted with Jakko that he didn't come across any 73 live recordings during his work, although there was a post at one point that implied that.
Fizzy, I think your observation about the King Biscuit mix is on point. The radio mix makes more use of the natural ambience throughout, so the back channels never sound like they're off. The album mix is a lot more "tweaked" That is very interesting that there was a 4 track recording from the montreal show.Well Steely I've heard a copy of that Biscuit live recording and what I've heard was actually pretty decent in quad.
Was it sweetened by the individual to sound better than the Q8 ? Well possibly .
But I guess part of what I was trying to get across on the Silverline/Immergent version that never occurred , was that it was at a time when they were putting out some of their last DVDA 5.1 discs........the good ones........such as Richard Thompson Old Kit Bag , Pere Ubu - Modern Dance , Dar Williams etc.,............ so IF (and it's a big if) they could have and would have it would have been better than those Live From The Front Row terrible upmixes .
But yes your right it is kinda all moot now , but mostly because it never happened .
Also my fuzzy memory kinda tells me I read somewheres in a 70's magazine that that live quad recording was taken from the concert at Montreal's Olympic Stadium show.
I kinda remember that as it was the Montreal show , which at the time I found to be a bit of a surprise .
Now for all we know it could have been pieced together from different tour stops , but we'll never know unless it sees the light of day in a present surround format.
Thanks for the info though , it's fun to share .
From the wiki page on the album, bold emphasis mine:
"
The album was recorded in February 1974 at the Anaheim Convention Center in Anaheim, California during the group's 1973–74 world tour in support of their fourth studio album, Brain Salad Surgery (1973). Its title comes from the introduction to the show spoken by the show's Master of Ceremonies (Pete Murray, the UK disc jockey) and the opening line of "Karn Evil 9: First Impression, Part 2".
To record the album, staff and equipment were brought in from Wally Heider Studios in Los Angeles, including a 24-track mobile recording unit and a 40-input console. Peter Granet, one of the engineers, called it "the finest recording experience I've ever had".[2] The band used a 4 channel quadraphonic PA system on the tour. A quad mix of the album was released as a three 8-track tape set. A quad LP record edition was planned for release in the Quadradisc format but was scrapped due to engineering issues in master recording which prevented JVC, the manufacturer, from cutting a stable master to meet the format's specifications.
Most of the recordings on the album were first used for broadcast on the American rock music radio show, The King Biscuit Flower Hour. In 1999, the radio recordings were released on CD.
"
Are you sure you're not thinking of the album Works Live aka Emerson Lake & Palmer In Concert which was recorded in Montreal in 1977?
"
The album was recorded in February 1974 at the Anaheim Convention Center in Anaheim, California during the group's 1973–74 world tour in support of their fourth studio album, Brain Salad Surgery (1973). Its title comes from the introduction to the show spoken by the show's Master of Ceremonies (Pete Murray, the UK disc jockey) and the opening line of "Karn Evil 9: First Impression, Part 2".
To record the album, staff and equipment were brought in from Wally Heider Studios in Los Angeles, including a 24-track mobile recording unit and a 40-input console. Peter Granet, one of the engineers, called it "the finest recording experience I've ever had".[2] The band used a 4 channel quadraphonic PA system on the tour. A quad mix of the album was released as a three 8-track tape set. A quad LP record edition was planned for release in the Quadradisc format but was scrapped due to engineering issues in master recording which prevented JVC, the manufacturer, from cutting a stable master to meet the format's specifications.
Most of the recordings on the album were first used for broadcast on the American rock music radio show, The King Biscuit Flower Hour. In 1999, the radio recordings were released on CD.
"
Are you sure you're not thinking of the album Works Live aka Emerson Lake & Palmer In Concert which was recorded in Montreal in 1977?
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