Dolby Atmos Ceiling Speakers

[Sal1950]

Has anyone else who has installed SVS Prime Elevations on the ceiling found they are quite wobbly (secured by using ceiling kit, but physically very wobbly)? I found that inserting some same color foam (black for me) along the back (behind the binding posts) and in front, but not so far forward so as to block the bass port, keeps them relatively solid against the ceiling.

Yes, mine are the same. Looking to find some foam to do the exact same thing as you.
SVS is aware, that's why they put that thin foam on the bracket to stop them from actually rattling. The mounting system has some weaknesses but does work and shouldn't really be an audible issue in any case.

 

[LuvMyQuad]

Yes, if one wants a combined Atmos/Auro 3D setup. Another consideration: With your Emotiva ceiling speakers, you can adjust the tweeter to fire towards the listening position...but how much so? At some point, the angle between the ceiling speaker and the seating position will become beyond what works, not only for the tweeter but also the midrange frequencies. I have no idea what that angle may be.

That angle is +/- 20deg (40deg range). But it is in only one plane. I will need to align that plane with the listening position (ie: rotate the speaker). There are some designs out there that tilt the entire speaker 15-20 degrees to help with this. It is recessed further back into the ceiling though and the clearance requirement is even greater.
Like this Or this

I purchased the last part I need for this project today. An Emotiva BasX A-5 Power Amp. So why 5 channels instead of 4?

1. I think a 5 channel amp is more sellable on the used market than 4 channel amp.
2. In the event I eventually want to include a VOG center speaker.
3. The upcharge is only $50

 

[Sal1950]

If you want a combined Atmos / Auro 3D installation, do not install those front height speakers as shown in the Atmos diagram.

That's the info I attempted to follow, it was also published in the Aug issue of Wide Screen Review by a Mr Wilfried Baelen, a part of the Auro design team.
My problem with my 5.2.4 is that in the rear I don't have any room behind the main listening position (MLP) so I mounted the RH's directly above the R L&R surrounds pointing at the MLP just like the rear surrounds.

Made a difference for me in this particular room that has no real good solutions. I have a slanting roof/ceiling as well but the AVR's program seemed to do a pretty good job adjusting all the speakers.

Ain't it fun trying to build a multich system in these places. LOL

So after reading what you posted, translated to my scenario, when there is a choice in placement, it is best to opt for the position that pushes the heights closer to where the mains are and further from the listening position.

That's how I understood it and what I did.

 

[tcdriver]

No DD Plus is Lossy. Your own chart says so.

Yes, you are correct. I misstated. Dolby Digital + is a non-lossless format. Thanks for catching

 

[LuvMyQuad]

My problem with my 5.2.4 is that in the rear I don't have any room behind the main listening position (MLP) so I mounted the RH's directly above the R L&R surrounds pointing at the MLP just like the rear surrounds.

I have basically that same issue. My solution to get more angle is to push them out to the right and left of the MPL

 

[Hamilton59]

So after reading what you posted, translated to my scenario, when there is a choice in placement, it is best to opt for the position that pushes the heights closer to where the mains are and further from the listening position.

I think this matters only if you have a lot Auro 3D titles you are going to listen to. In my experience, I do have several Auro 3D discs that I used to play when I first received them, but not at all anymore. There is so much more Dolby ATMOS content coming out now that I personally wouldn’t even worry about Auro 3D speaker setup.

When I tested my overhead speaker locations, I tried several positions. When the speakers were placed in the front height positions along the front wall above the mains, the sound obviously came from the front above the speakers. There was only a few degrees of vertical separation. When I moved those speakers to the center of the ceiling between me and the fronts, the sound now came from ABOVE me. It made a huge difference and is much closer to the Dolby ATMOS setup specs. I believe you should follow the overhead speaker placement design specs as closely as is practical to get the intended 3D effects from ATMOS.

My first speaker configurations were compatible with Auro 3D, ATMOS, etc. You had to choose the correct speaker configuration in the Marantz setup that enabled this compatibility. However, the true speaker positions weren’t matched with this configuration. Later, I moved my Front Height speakers to a (center) Top Front and Top Rear positions, but left the amp configuration set for Auro 3D compatibility. I used this configuration for a long time but it always bothered me that the physical placement didn’t match the amp’s configuration. I also found that I wasn’t playing the Auro 3D discs anymore. I finally went back in to the amp’s setup and changed it to the Top Front, Top Rear configuration and I immediately noticed an improvement with ATMOS play back. The sound field changed and became more focused.

Anyway, I just thought I’d share my overhead speaker placement experience with you.

 

[GOS]

I think this matters only if you have a lot Auro 3D titles you are going to listen to. In my experience, I do have several Auro 3D discs that I used to play when I first received them, but not at all anymore. There is so much more Dolby ATMOS content coming out now that I personally wouldn’t even worry about Auro 3D speaker setup.

When I tested my overhead speaker locations, I tried several positions. When the speakers were placed in the front height positions along the front wall above the mains, the sound obviously came from the front above the speakers. There was only a few degrees of vertical separation. When I moved those speakers to the center of the ceiling between me and the fronts, the sound now came from ABOVE me. It made a huge difference and is much closer to the Dolby ATMOS setup specs. I believe you should follow the overhead speaker placement design specs as closely as is practical to get the intended 3D effects from ATMOS.


View attachment 74813

My first speaker configurations were compatible with Auro 3D, ATMOS, etc. You had to choose the correct speaker configuration in the Marantz setup that enabled this compatibility. However, the true speaker positions weren’t matched with this configuration. Later, I moved my Front Height speakers to a (center) Top Front and Top Rear positions, but left the amp configuration set for Auro 3D compatibility. I used this configuration for a long time but it always bothered me that the physical placement didn’t match the amp’s configuration. I also found that I wasn’t playing the Auro 3D discs anymore. I finally went back in to the amp’s setup and changed it to the Top Front, Top Rear configuration and I immediately noticed an improvement with ATMOS play back. The sound field changed and became more focused.

Anyway, I just thought I’d share my overhead speaker placement experience with you.

So, your height speakers are now mounted on the ceiling, is that what you mean? (not on the walls) and, yes...that's what you mean...now that I reread your post.

 

[Hamilton59]

So, your height speakers are now mounted on the ceiling, is that what you mean? (not on the walls) and, yes...that's what you mean...now that I reread your post.

Yes Gene, I was able to move the speakers from the Front Height wall mounts to the center by hanging my Top Front speakers on a beam that runs across my ceiling…

 

[LuvMyQuad]

Yes Gene, I was able to move the speakers from the Front Height wall mounts to the center by hanging my Top Front speakers on a beam that runs across my ceiling…

View attachment 74814

Those seem way far back into the room, but I guess it really depends on where you are sitting.

I think one advantage with a drop ceiling is if you want to move the height speakers its a relatively easy thing to do. Ill be sure to leave extra cable in the ceiling to accommodate that.

Stereo was a lot easier than this. This all just seems so arbitrary, vague, and non precise. And not home friendly at all. I just cant see the average listener going through all this the way we are. No wonder they settle for a sound bar.

 

[Hamilton59]

Those seem way far back into the room, but I guess it really depends on where you are sitting.

I think one advantage with a drop ceiling is if you want to move the height speakers its a relatively easy thing to do. Ill be sure to leave extra cable in the ceiling to accommodate that.

Stereo was a lot easier than this. This all just seems so arbitrary, vague, and non precise. And not home friendly at all. I just cant see the average listener going through all this the way we are. No wonder they settle for a sound bar.

My seating is 3/4 of the room back from the fronts in our living room. I had to move back for a fireplace and door way in this room which turned out to be very close to the room layout for the Dolby speaker placement overhead diagram that you posted yesterday. If you refer to the overhead speaker angles in the Dolby specs, I have approx 50 degrees to the Top Fronts and 130 degrees to the Top Rears. I think staying within the Dolby specs for Top speaker placement angles is important for ATMOS imagining.

Being able to move the speakers with your drop panel ceiling is wonderful! Very convenient!

Yes two channel was a lot easier, but even then you had people sticking speaker’s wherever they wanted compared to those of us who put them in the an equilateral triangle, toed in to 60 degrees to our listening position etc. I think it’s really all the same. Follow the Dolby specs as close as is practical for your room and then get blown away by being truly surrounded !

 

[Sal1950]

Stereo was a lot easier than this. This all just seems so arbitrary, vague, and non precise. And not home friendly at all. I just cant see the average listener going through all this the way we are.

Not really arbitrary, there are guidelines set down to for us. It's just that in the real world many if not most of us have rooms that we have to make compromises over.
BTW, if you haven't noticed, we're not "the average listeners". LOL

 

[ar surround]

Follow the Dolby specs as close as is practical for your room and then get blown away by being truly surrounded !

If you are mainly interested in Atmos and only peripherally interested in Auro 3D, then what Hamilton59 says is likely the route to go. In my case, I am primarily interested in Auro 3D upmixing for music and not as much in Atmos, so I went with the compromise layout.

My situation also allows a bit of wiggle room with placement of the mains and surrounds if desired to get even closer to the optimum Auro 3D arrangement. As it stands now, the vertical angles from my main listening position to the ceiling speakers is about 30 and 150 degrees, which actually matches the Atmos diagram. It's never was going to be the optimum of 45/135 degrees from the main position (ceiling duct interferences), but it is within the specified range should I decide to change the AVR's parameters as Hamilton59 did.

Also, I really enjoy upmixing DTS 5.1 soundtracks to Neural X.

 

[LuvMyQuad]

The angular difference for the front heights between the Dolby recommendation and the combined Auro/Dolby recommendation is 15 degrees.

Dolby wants 45deg with a range of 30-55deg.

The Auro/Dolby recommendation is 30 deg with a range of 20 - 35deg.

Assuming an 8 ft ceiling, a 4 foot ear level height and an 8" distance to the front speakers, and of course if i did the math right:

For the Dolby recommendation sweet spot, you would need to locate the front heights 4 feet in front of the mains. The range allows for distances of 1ft to 6ft in front of the mains.

For the Auro/Dolby recommendation sweet spot, you would need to locate the front heights 1 foot in front of the mains. The range allows for distances of 2+ ft behind the mains to 2.5 ft in front of them.

So there is some overlap.

I'm going to take some measurements over the weekend and see if I can get a bit closer on the estimates, but I believe the initial assumptions I made are pretty close.

 

[Sal1950]

My situation also allows a bit of wiggle room with placement of the mains and surrounds if desired to get even closer to the optimum Auro 3D arrangement. As it stands now, the vertical angles from my main listening position to the ceiling speakers is about 30 and 150 degrees, which actually matches the Atmos diagram. It's never was going to be the optimum of 45/135 degrees from the main position (ceiling duct interferences), but it is within the specified range should I decide to change the AVR's parameters as Hamilton59 did.

What confuses me and something I can't find any guidelines for is this. In your graphic, for the front height speaker 7, it shows the speaker pointing straight down and the best angle to MPL to be 45 degrees.
But what about with my SVS Elevations with the slanted front baffle, does that angle need to be figured into the (45 to MLP) somehow?
And what about also having a slanted ceiling like myself and @boondocks, how to figure that into the equations?
I spent about 4 days surfing and reading, trying to come up with solid ideas.
In the end all I got was a headache. LOL

As I mentioned earlier, for the rear heights, there is little option open to me since the MLP is just about against the rear wall. But I'm open to suggestions.
And please no comments about the hanging wires, I'll put up tracks for them just as soon as my layout is finalized. LOL

 

[mandrix]

What confuses me and something I can't find any guidelines for is this. In your graphic, for the front height speaker 7, it shows the speaker pointing straight down and the best angle to MPL to be 45 degrees.
But what about with my SVS Elevations with the slanted front baffle, does that angle need to be figured into the (45 to MLP) somehow?
And what about also having a slanted ceiling like myself and @boondocks, how to figure that into the equations?
I spent about 4 days surfing and reading, trying to come up with solid ideas.
In the end all I got was a headache. LOLView attachment 74833View attachment 74834

As I mentioned earlier, for the rear heights, there is little option open to me since the MLP is just about against the rear wall. But I'm open to suggestions.
And please no comments about the hanging wires, I'll put up tracks for them just as soon as my layout is finalized. LOL
View attachment 74835

I used to sit as far back against the wall as I could. Now I have my chair pulled out a little bit since it's power recliner. But I have my surrounds up high on swivel mounts and can aim them any damn where I please. I don't think my music listening has suffered any for having the surrounds like this. My corner speakers were all made to be mounted to a piece of wood matching the base, they have threaded ferrules inserted in the cabinets when manufactured and I bought the matching mount bases with them. The ball/swivel mechanism mounts to the bottom plate and it in turn has the arm suspending it from the wall imbedded in it. The ball adjusts up and down and the mounts on the wall (in the studs with 3/8" lag bolts) allow swiveling from left to right. They have more than enough load capacity for my speakers and were sort of pricey but well worth it. It was that or throw out furniture, after which I just as well should have moved if you get my drift. So up on the wall they went.

 

[LuvMyQuad]

So in the event anyone is keeping track here, it turns out the best I can do is 31 deg on the front and 132 deg on the rear. I could get the fronts closer to 45deg, but that would move the location beyond the center point of the room, and the room is only 13 ft deep.

What confuses me and something I can't find any guidelines for is this. In your graphic, for the front height speaker 7, it shows the speaker pointing straight down and the best angle to MPL to be 45 degrees.
But what about with my SVS Elevations with the slanted front baffle, does that angle need to be figured into the (45 to MLP) somehow?
And what about also having a slanted ceiling like myself and @boondocks, how to figure that into the equations?

Good question. I don't think its the angle that really matters, its the distance. They need the distance to be in spec so they can properly set delays. Here are my thoughts.

Go back to the birds eye view . By specifying the angles here, they are setting the distance ratios from the MLP to the mains and the distance between the mains. This works regardless of room size. By specifying the angles they are implicitly setting up the distances required. This has to be correct before you can use the drawing in post #152. The information given in post #152 doesn't make sense on its own. Notice that it doesn't reference anything in regard to distance from the mains? So if you had a layout that was 30 feet long, vs one that was 10 feet long, the placement would be the same as long as the ceiling height and the ear level remain the same. That cant be right.

With the distances from MLP to mains now defined and "in spec", the relative distances for the height speakers can be determined. Again they specified it in terms of angle but they are really trying to specify a distance. And again, a specified angle works, regardless of room or layout size.

The math looks like this : It probably easier to measure D than X. To determine X use the Pythagorean theorem A squared +B squared =C squared (sorry it seems I cant do superscripts). Anyway, X=square root (H squared +D squared). Then using the law of sines, a= inverse sine(D/X). What I did was create a spreadsheet with possible "D" locations to give the resulting angles. There will be a quiz on this tomorrow.

 

[LuvMyQuad]

As I mentioned earlier, for the rear heights, there is little option open to me since the MLP is just about against the rear wall. But I'm open to suggestions.

To get more distance, can you push them out further to the right and left?

 

[mandrix]

@LuvMyQuad Teacher I'm gonna be sick tomorrow, not coming to skool.
@Sal1950 room looks similar to mine. I'm gonna guess he can't go very much further., But we'll see what he says.
Adjusting by a few degrees I would not think would make an earth shattering difference.

 

[ar surround]

What confuses me and something I can't find any guidelines for is this. In your graphic, for the front height speaker 7, it shows the speaker pointing straight down and the best angle to MPL to be 45 degrees.
But what about with my SVS Elevations with the slanted front baffle, does that angle need to be figured into the (45 to MLP) somehow?
And what about also having a slanted ceiling like myself and @boondocks, how to figure that into the equations?
I spent about 4 days surfing and reading, trying to come up with solid ideas.
In the end all I got was a headache. LOL

Good question. I don't think its the angle that really matters, its the distance. They need the distance to be in spec so they can properly set delays. Here are my thoughts.

Here is another diagram from the Atmos set up guide:

In this Figure 13, the horizontal angle between the surrounds and the MLP can be as low as 90 degrees; which would effectively accommodate an arrangement where the couch is against the back wall. The rear height (top) speakers are shown relatively close to the surrounds.

Yet, the second diagram shows a scenario where the rear height speakers are clearly behind the surrounds.

I questioned this "discrepancy" in this thread. @CINERAMAX replied that it was the optimum 135 degree angle for the rear heights for Atmos playback that mattered. (See posts 92 and 93 in this thread) I am sorry to confuse the matter even more so, but it's unfair that you be spared the headache that we've all gotten from this.

 

[Hamilton59]

Go back to the birds eye view . By specifying the angles here, they are setting the distance ratios from the MLP to the mains and the distance between the mains. This works regardless of room size. By specifying the angles they are implicitly setting up the distances required. This has to be correct before you can use the drawing in post #152. The information given in post #152 doesn't make sense on its own. Notice that it doesn't reference anything in regard to distance from the mains? So if you had a layout that was 30 feet long, vs one that was 10 feet long, the placement would be the same as long as the ceiling height and the ear level remain the same. That cant be right.

I personally think you are putting too much importance on the distance between mains and the Front Top speakers. I don’t believe these Home Theater Speaker Guides from Dolby are intended to “implicitly” set up a distance from the mains. These guidelines have a good bit of variance between them as well, 22 to 30 degrees on the mains and also with the diagrams that @ar surround posted above. I believe they are more concerned with the relationship of the Top speakers to the listeners position. The AVR will correct the timing/distances during setup.
Just IMHO!