Is it my speakers? I think I'm done with CD's. Are paid-for downloadable files any better? (...and, "Can it reach 60", a quality test for CDs)

[Rango]

So...I've been reviewing my CD collection in light of listening to DVD-A and Blu-ray audio and, I've basically reached a point where I'm playing what I guess is a game (?) that I'm unofficially calling "Can it reach 60" (if you want to try it, your volume settings will be particular to your receiver/amp; for me the watershed point is 60, yours I should imagine will almost certainly differ).

The rules are pretty simple: I play the CD I'm "road-testing" with the volume set at 50 and I slowly increase the volume until the tinny, treble makes it unlistenable and prevents me from increasing the volume any further.

A good example is the Pixies Debut album, Come on Pilgrim from the Minotaur box set: it has Come on Pilgrim on CD, DVD-A & Blu-ray. The CD (2.1) and DVD-A (5.1) mixes of Come On Pilgrim can't hit 60 before the treble collapses (or probably more accurately amasses or accumulates) into a distorted trebly mess...

...however, the Blu-ray mix of, Come On Pilgrim (5.1) can be pushed past 60 without the higher frequencies collapsing into a mass of tinny treble and the mix can be played at a high enough volume to bring out the full nuance and color of the music.

Although that's the closest I can currently get to an apples to apples comparison, I'm noticing this trend with the majority of my CD's, I'm not able turn them up loud enough to hear the detail and nuance of the mix because the treble collapses into a tinny mess.

I'm wondering if better speakers might remedy this, but I can't think that that would be the case, as my speakers handle high resolution formats without issue and I have certain CD-based mixes that they can render excellently.

The Come on Pilgrim comparison: 2.1 CD, 5.1 DVD-A & 5.1 Blu-ray audio (with only the Blu-ray audio capable of remaining distinct at volumes higher than the watershed point for most of the CD's in my collection) seem to suggest it's the lower-res CD format that's to blame.

I'm also wondering if paid-for downloadable files are any better, or if stuff is just generally produced low-res enough to fit on a CD, with those files then offered for download.

My guess is that it probably differs from artist to artist, with newer artists, who produce specifically for paid download and who don't have to work within those file-size/resolution restrictions, potentially producing higher resolution files?...with older music, that's not been remastered in higher-resolution for download offering no improvement over CD.

I'm only just starting to explore this stuff, so I don't know if I'm walking an already well-trodden path here...?...but I'm going to start a move over to downloadable files from places like Amazon and Band camp, so I'll be able to make some comparisons, but in the meantime, I'm wondering what light other forum members might be able to shed on this topic?

 

[par4ken]

I think that you are hearing what I've been complaining about for some time. CD's in particular have fallen victim of the loudness war. The offending disc will likely show a very low DR value. If you look at the waveform by opening it in an audio editing program you are likely to see that it is squashed flat like a pancake. I'm not certain if the compression itself that causes the harsh treble sound or if it is the result of excessive equalisation being applied as well in a vain attempt to put some life back into the flattened out mix.

Early CD releases and audiophile releases sound much better. I find many modern CD's to be hard to listen to, a treble cut is almost always necessary.

My music interest is more for the older stuff so often I return to (vintage) vinyl for the best sound. I digitise my collection enabling the removal of those annoying ticks and pops.

SACD are usually free of added compression effects (but not always). Blu-rays usually sound fantastic, but sometimes suffer from compression effects as well.

 

[Rango]

I think that you are hearing what I've been complaining about for some time. CD's in particular have fallen victim of the loudness war. The offending disc will likely show a very low DR value. If you look at the waveform by opening it in an audio editing program you are likely to see that it is squashed flat like a pancake. I'm not certain if the compression itself that causes the harsh treble sound or if it is the result of excessive equalisation being applied as well in a vain attempt to put some life back into the flattened out mix.

Early CD releases and audiophile releases sound much better. I find many modern CD's to be hard to listen to, a treble cut is almost always necessary.

My music interest is more for the older stuff so often I return to (vintage) vinyl for the best sound. I digitise my collection enabling the removal of those annoying ticks and pops.

SACD are usually free of added compression effects (but not always). Blu-rays usually sound fantastic, but sometimes suffer from compression effects as well.

Thanks, I thought it had to be the CD's and not my speakers but wasn't sure. Thanks for clarifying that for me.

I was beginning to wonder if vinyl might be the better option, if no SACD, DVD-A or BluRay is available. I think I'd take the pops and ticks over the horrible treble compression every time...?...do you not get that compression on vinyl?

I was under the impression that vinyl was comparably lower density than CD...?...in other words: if you perfectly reproduced a vinyl album digitally, the file you ended up with wouldn't fill a CD...?...and that CD's were overall higher resolution...?...but I'm guessing if the treble compression on CD means you can't actually play CD's at a loud enough volume to appreciate the improved resolution in the other frequencies...?...there's not much point in moving on from Vinyl.

I just wish people would insist on DVD-A or SACD rather than vinyl. So many bands pressing vinyl when we could be getting DVD-Audio. Surely releasing a DVD-A has to be easier than a vinyl pressing...surely it has to be...

...I've seen people on AV forums claiming laserdisc is "the only way to watch a movie" ...I mean seriously: Blu-ray audio? DVD-A? I've got SACD's that sounds amazing! I mean, seriously...

 

[TuliaNonTroppo]

It sounds like a worthy project, Rango! Whatever we can do to make the music enjoyable. All our systems are different, so I think we all have our tricks to listen to the music we enjoy in a way we enjoy it most.

For me, the threshold you are talking about is likely much lower. My speakers are highly efficient to where it doesn’t take many watts for them to reach that threshold on some albums. My amplifier does not have an adjustable gain setting, so I get my headroom elsewhere. A few ways I do it are as follows:
- audiophile remasters aren’t subject to excessive compression like Par4ken discusses. Turning these up often sound fantastic.
- hi-res streaming from Qobuz and Bandcamp can sound fantastic and dynamic as well, but nothing is for certain, and thankfully all can be listened to before purchase!
- digital volume control via Roon allows me to turn it down without adjusting my preamps volume knob.
- Schiit EQ in the chain can help tame some frequencies that my untreated room can overexcite. It is defeatable and transparent when defeated, so I only engage it when I feel it is needed. I often tame the screech!

 

[Rango]

It sounds like a worthy project, Rango! Whatever we can do to make the music enjoyable. All our systems are different, so I think we all have our tricks to listen to the music we enjoy in a way we enjoy it most.

For me, the threshold you are talking about is likely much lower. My speakers are highly efficient to where it doesn’t take many watts for them to reach that threshold on some albums. My amplifier does not have an adjustable gain setting, so I get my headroom elsewhere. A few ways I do it are as follows:
- audiophile remasters aren’t subject to excessive compression like Par4ken discusses. Turning these up often sound fantastic.
- hi-res streaming from Qobuz and Bandcamp can sound fantastic and dynamic as well, but nothing is for certain, and thankfully all can be listened to before purchase!
- digital volume control via Roon allows me to turn it down without adjusting my preamps volume knob.
- Schiit EQ in the chain can help tame some frequencies that my untreated room can overexcite. It is defeatable and transparent when defeated, so I only engage it when I feel it is needed. I often tame the screech!

I've got an original masters gold CD of Breakfast in America and it sounds great.

I've got a couple of CD's that sound fantastic too; maybe it's the mastering but might just be the mix? Anything with a ton of crash symbols on CD it seems is just going to be obstructive to enjoyment (at least for me).

 

[TuliaNonTroppo]

I've got an original masters gold CD of Breakfast in America and it sounds great.

I've got a couple of CD's that sound fantastic too,; maybe it's the mastering but might just be the mix? Anything with a ton of crash symbols on CD it seems is just going to be obstructive to enjoyment (at least for me).

The mastering is often an obvious culprit.

 

[par4ken]

I was under the impression that vinyl was comparably lower density than CD...?...in other words: if you perfectly reproduced a vinyl album digitally, the file you ended up with wouldn't fill a CD...?...and that CD's were overall higher resolution...?...but I'm guessing if the treble compression on CD means you can't actually play CD's at a loud enough volume to appreciate the improved resolution in the other frequencies...?...there's not much point in moving on from Vinyl.

CD's are capable of higher resolution than we get from vinyl. We just have not been getting it due to the loudness war. Not a fault of the medium itself.

 

[timbre4]

The mastering is often an obvious culprit.

Bingo, it's not the format. I think the loudness wars already crested a few years ago. I still buy a few CDs and nothing egregious to report as of late.

 

[Rango]

The mastering is often an obvious culprit.

I think so.

CD's are capable of higher resolution than we get from vinyl. We just have not been getting it due to the loudness war. Not a fault of the medium itself.

Not sure what you mean by "the loudness war"...?...but yeah, I have a couple of really nice sounding CD's that I'm happy with; but they seem to be the exception rather than the rule.

Bingo, it's not the format. I think the loudness wars already crested a few years ago. I still buy a few CDs and nothing egregious to report as of late.

Maybe it's because I listen to "loud" music, or music that's intended to be played loud...?...but most of my CD's are unlistenable on my system. They were okay for ripping to my mp3 Walkman but they're just unplayable on my home system.

I think I'm just going to see if the downloadable files are any better and failing that, vinyl?

 

[inspclouseau]

I think that you are hearing what I've been complaining about for some time. CD's in particular have fallen victim of the loudness war. The offending disc will likely show a very low DR value. If you look at the waveform by opening it in an audio editing program you are likely to see that it is squashed flat like a pancake. I'm not certain if the compression itself that causes the harsh treble sound or if it is the result of excessive equalisation being applied as well in a vain attempt to put some life back into the flattened out mix.

Early CD releases and audiophile releases sound much better. I find many modern CD's to be hard to listen to, a treble cut is almost always necessary.

My music interest is more for the older stuff so often I return to (vintage) vinyl for the best sound. I digitise my collection enabling the removal of those annoying ticks and pops.

SACD are usually free of added compression effects (but not always). Blu-rays usually sound fantastic, but sometimes suffer from compression effects as well.

On target. We also have a lot of 'loudness wars' cd's we purchased during that time. Absolutely un-listenable. And it has been transferred over to a few Sacds/DVD-Audio from that time as well. Maybe a small improvement..but still sound like sht. The first one to mind was DVD-A Staind/ 14 shades Of Grey. We love that album but man! Another disappointment. The 'music industry' have had and still have some bs ideas...as long as it makes them money. Quality is generally NOT their primary concern. ~Generally~ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$ and 'mixing' can be very destructive when done poorly, or the 'engineers' simply do not care. We are very fortunate to have some damn good ones around still though. Some even younger still thank goodness. Steven Wilson immediately comes to mind. Just not enough like this....

 

[gene_stl]

One thing that occured to me when reading the original post is that various formats might come out of your player at different levels. So the number on the volume control might not be the best measure of "how loud you are able to take it" . You might need to find a good phone volume measurement app or purchase a "Radio Shack Sound Level Meter" or equivalent which most old timey audiophiles own.
https://www.amazon.com/sound-level-meter/s?k=sound+level+meter
Or a microphone and a free copy of REW which would give more info. These would help you get accurate numbers of how loud you are able to go and help you speriment with whether it is the CDs you have or possibly your equipment.

Loudspeakers DO increase distortion as volume goes up in most cases. Whether that is what you are running up against also depends on your room and your ears and how loud "60" is in your room (in SPL dB) It also may depend on whether your speakers particular efficiency is causing your amps to clip. These effects are at loud sound levels.

In addition to REW mentioned above you should look into the Free on the Web version of Adobe Audition which is popular here or also Audacity. There are likely many others that will allow you to examine your music files and look for Dynamic Range values and recorded clipping and overs.

 

[Rango]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudness_war
hmm...

Not surprising that one of the CD's I'm happy with is Pod by The Breeders; it must be at least about 10% quieter than an average CD, I actually had to boost the volume on the rips for my walkman, to bring it up to the same volume as everything else on my playlist. I think they recorded it that way because there's a point in the album where they bring it up to full volume for effect?

One thing that occured to me when reading the original post is that various formats might come out of your player at different levels. So the number on the volume control might not be the best measure of "how loud you are able to take it" . You might need to find a good phone volume measurement app or purchase a "Radio Shack Sound Level Meter" or equivalent which most old timey audiophiles own.
https://www.amazon.com/sound-level-meter/s?k=sound+level+meter
Or a microphone and a free copy of REW which would give more info. These would help you get accurate numbers of how loud you are able to go and help you speriment with whether it is the CDs you have or possibly your equipment.

Yeah, it's completely arbitrary. It just happens that I listen to most of my stuff at around what my receiver reads as "60"...?... but it's not something I need an accurate read on...?... it's just a rule of thumb.

The bottom line, so-to-speak, is basically just whether I can enjoy the music or not and it seems that most of my CD's fail before they hit that arbitrary volume.

There's not really a need for an objective measurement? Unless people on the forum wanted to compare results but, looking at the Loudness War wikipedia link, it seems it's all academic at this point.

 

[Rango]

In addition to REW mentioned above you should look into the Free on the Web version of Adobe Audition which is popular here or also Audacity. There are likely many others that will allow you to examine your music files and look for Dynamic Range values and recorded clipping and overs.

I'd like to get more into this stuff and to do some upmixing too...?...but I've just got so much on my plate at the moment I'm not sure I'll ever get to it.

 

[kfbkfb]

Has anyone found an expander (possibly with a peak unlimiter) - software or hardware - that helps undo brickwalling/compression/peak limiting without creating a lot of audible side effects?


Kirk Bayne

 

[par4ken]

Has anyone found an expander (possibly with a peak unlimiter) - software or hardware - that helps undo brickwalling/compression/peak limiting without creating a lot of audible side effects?


Kirk Bayne

I use this one Relife (VST plugin). It helps a lot but I think that a Brickwalled CD can never be fully recovered.

https://www.terrywest.nl/x64.html

 

[Mr. Afternoon]

...I've seen people on AV forums claiming laserdisc is "the only way to watch a movie" ...I mean seriously: Blu-ray audio? DVD-A? I've got SACD's that sounds amazing! I mean, seriously...

AFAIK that's because laserdisc pressings tend to have unadulterated surround sound tracks that are identical to the theater versions. Some movies on DVD and Blu-ray have modified surround tracks to make them sound better on a plebeian's surround system.

 

[Robert van Diggele]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudness_war
hmm...

Not surprising that one of the CD's I'm happy with is Pod by The Breeders; it must be at least about 10% quieter than an average CD, I actually had to boost the volume on the rips for my walkman, to bring it up to the same volume as everything else on my playlist. I think they recorded it that way because there's a point in the album where they bring it up to full volume for effect?

Yeah, it's completely arbitrary. It just happens that I listen to most of my stuff at around what my receiver reads as "60"...?... but it's not something I need an accurate read on...?... it's just a rule of thumb.

The bottom line, so-to-speak, is basically just whether I can enjoy the music or not and it seems that most of my CD's fail before they hit that arbitrary volume.

There's not really a need for an objective measurement? Unless people on the forum wanted to compare results but, looking at the Loudness War wikipedia link, it seems it's all academic at this point.

That album has very good dynamic range numbers, Album list - Dynamic Range DB

 

[Sonik Wiz]

I use this one Relife (VST plugin). It helps a lot but I think that a Brickwalled CD can never be fully recovered.

https://www.terrywest.nl/x64.html

Thanks for the link Ken. VST compressor plug ins are easy to find, not un-limiters. Orly prob is there's no FAQ or help page to learn more about it, just donate & download.

Once upon a time I had 2, stereo Pioneer RG-1 dynamic processor's. Clipping the blend resistor between the control signals gave 4 independent chs of dynamic range enhancement . It really was a significant improvement. I've been looking for a PC tool to do that ever since. Maybe the Terry West VST.

 

[4-earredwonder]

I try to read reviews whenever possible of current rock/pop albums to avoid purchasing albums that have been 'compromised' with compression artifacts. On my secondary system, I play my RBCDs analogue out into an all analogue Parasound P7 pre~amp at FLAT response [absolutely NO EQ boost] and the sound is very satisfying. Speakers are B&W 802 Nautilus ... full range and no sub.

Still, there are albums in my collection which are 'compromised' and the ole sayin' GARBAGE IN ... GARBAGE OUT is ever so true ..... Can't make a silk purse out of a sow's V ..... no matter WHAT! And SHAME on those tone deaf engineers and artists who allow these abominations to slip through the cracks!

OTOH, Jazz and classical RBCDs seem to avoid compression artifacts and usually sound excellent! Can even give higher res formats a run for their $$$$$$

When ELUSIVE DISC recently blew out dozens of their JVC Japanese produced XRCD 24/32 bit RBCDs...some as low as $5, I stocked up on them and if you really what to 'experience' what the 16b/44.1kHz CD is capable of .... spin these puppies. The deepest bass, startling high end/mids .... if ONLY all SACDs sounded THIS GOOD!

 

[Mr. Afternoon]

I find compression is region-dependant as well. For example, no matter what the genre, Japanese records seem to have heavy brickwalling, even if you listen to records as far back as 1991! Jazz and Pop in particular seems to be extra compressed over there, even on SACDs! For example, the Yukihiro Takahashi SACDs are egregiously bad compared to the original CD issues. DRs of below 7 if I remember correctly.