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Are Dutton Vocalion Surround Sound SACDs "Improperly Mastered"?

Clint Eastwood

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To be brutally honest, I had chosen to stop coming over here altogether because of a few individuals who were taking away the fun out of coming here from me. Well, after I decided to use the extremely underrated ignore function, I'm actually enjoying this Quad haven even more.

Thanks always to Jon for being the generous stand up guy that he is and to Michael Dutton and his gang of merry Quad renegades for releasing all this crazy and beautiful music.

That's all from me right now. I believe i just got the goodbye look...
I understand exactly how you feel...due to health issues I made the overall decision to cut my internet time and focus on real life issues...but even if that hadn't happened I would have stopped posting on here on a regular basis...this is the best forum I have ever posted on...and it's due to Jon's "silent" leadership and the intellectual maturity of the members(most of them)..and very understanding moderators...but things started to change when AF started releasing the Quads and surround titles...at first it was like the proverbial honeymoon on here...everybody was happy...then unfortunately people started to become "greedy"...like an addict the more you give them the more they want and EXPECT...complaints about content..or this..or that surfaced...and suddenly a man(Marshall) that had bent over backwards to go against the grain(and most business models)to bring these timeless recordings out of the graveyard was being criticized...despite numerous explanations by Bmoura.. it fell on mostly deaf ears...that just started to wear on me...the final straw was the Fleetwood Mac releases and Sgt Peppers...to get those releases... at this point in time... was IMO close to a miracle...but when I returned after a few weeks after the Sgt Peppers release and saw some of the absurd comments about that release...that was the clincher for me...if you didn't like it..fine...but some of the complaints were just plain moronic...no other way to say it.....because if I would have been an active member I would have been in someone's face...and that's something I don't need in my life...this is supposed to be an enjoyable hobby...not some type of confrontation contest...

It's just the overall "entitlement" mindset that just saps all the joy out of these releases...and when you consider the reality of the situation.. it's mind blowing that some people can't appreciate these releases...it's gotten to the point where if it's not STEVEN WILSON quality and it's not cheap..and it's not a standalone or if it's not this or not that...then the moaning and groaning begins....it's not just a few anymore that have these entitlement issues...more and more seem to be heading in this direction...and some still won't face the fact that surround music is not a money maker...it's a TINY fraction of the disc market...and situations like AF and Dutton are rare.....the sad part is that these are... for the most part... great people on here...and when the music stops(releases stop)...they will realize how foolish they were to take all this for granted...

I hope you come back Simon...you are one of the good guys:)
 

ubertrout

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...It's just the overall "entitlement" mindset that just saps all the joy out of these releases...and when you consider the reality of the situation.. it's mind blowing that some people can't appreciate these releases...it's gotten to the point where if it's not STEVEN WILSON quality and it's not cheap..and it's not a standalone or if it's not this or not that...then the moaning and groaning begins....it's not just a few anymore that have these entitlement issues...more and more seem to be heading in this direction...and some still won't face the fact that surround music is not a money maker...it's a TINY fraction of the disc market...and situations like AF and Dutton are rare.....the sad part is that these are... for the most part... great people on here...and when the music stops(releases stop)...they will realize how foolish they were to take all this for granted...
Yup. I have a pretty high tolerance for inanity and can look past it, but the complaints of "why isn't my order here NOW," "why not [insert high demand title] instead of the [title that was successfully licenced against all odds]," "did they use [thimgamabob] to do the transfer, that's really important to me," or my favorite of all "X just cares about money" - truly an asinine thing to say in an era where no-one is in the music business just to make money.

I've had issues with DV. A shipment of the discs I was most excited about never arrived, which led them to fire their shipper and send me a new package gratis. I've been less than enthralled by some of their choices. But really, they're doing a wonderful job, and the alternative to their work is not getting everyone's favorite titles for pennies - it's getting nothing at all. I'm glad even for the release of I title I have absolutely no interest in.

(and by the way, people should check out their own classical recordings as well, not just the quad remasters)
 

wavelength

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As long as people here keep on bringing news of new surround discs that I can buy I really have a short memory for all the other stuff that sometimes goes on here.
 

~dave~~wave~

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It's just the overall "entitlement" mindset that just saps all the joy out of these releases...and when you consider the reality of the situation.. it's mind blowing that some people can't appreciate these releases...it's gotten to the point where if it's not STEVEN WILSON quality and it's not cheap..and it's not a standalone or if it's not this or not that...then the moaning and groaning begins....it's not just a few anymore that have these entitlement issues...more and more seem to be heading in this direction...and some still won't face the fact that surround music is not a money maker...it's a TINY fraction of the disc market...and situations like AF and Dutton are rare.....the sad part is that these are... for the most part... great people on here...and when the music stops(releases stop)...they will realize how foolish they were to take all this for granted...
Post of the decade, and my sentiments exactly.

I have no interest in reading posts why someone is not interested in buying a new release.
The recent thread on ELP Fanfare an excellent example, great news announced, and within an hour a shameful piling-on of naysayers.

I have no time for such negativity, and to re-iterate Simon A's observation, the "ignore" option has become essential, sadly.
 

Bill Mac

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Below are comments from a post over at AVS from member sworth on the Dutton Vocalion Leopold Stokowski/London Symphony Orchestra - Brünnhilde's Immolation SACD. It's a bit long but he is basically saying that the SACD has no bass below 80Hz. I'm curious to know if there is an actual issue with this SACD or if sworth has an issue with his system. Are there any reviews here on QQ for this DV SACD? Does anyone own it that could offer their thoughts on the SQ specifically the bass? Thanks :)!

OK. I got home from work early so I threw on the Immolation SACD.

First I verified that all my bass management settings were correct. All my speakers were set to small. Crossover at 80Hz. Played a couple of minutes of an Elton John SACD. The sub was firing perfectly. Beautiful full sound. Then I put on the Immolation SACD and verified that it was indeed quad. No center channel. I skipped to the end with the fire music and kettle drums. I went over to the sub. Couldn't hear anything come out of it. Put my hand on it and felt a very faint vibration. Not enough to generate any sound. So I went to the AVR settings and dialed the sub up to maximum volume possible... +16dB over my normal setting. (That is 2 1/2 times the volume level and would blast bass with any other recording.) I could just hear a little bit of sound coming out, but it was all in one frequency band, because the kettle drums had a clear discernible note. When the basses would do a descending pattern of notes, the sound would be there and then disappear as it went lower. It seems to me that on a quad album if some sound is coming out of the sub, then bass management is working.

So I tried setting all the speakers to large to turn off bass management. That made no difference at all. Still no sub bass.

I went to my music server to search up the RCA stereo Bach transcriptions album from CD. It turns out the fill up was Handel's Water Music, not Immolation. So I chose Komm Susser Tod to compare to the SACD.

Immediately there was a difference. The CD started out with a sustained bass note like a pedal on an organ. Throughout the piece was a low frequency musical pattern like the bass line on an organ piece. That was almost inaudible on the SACD. I boosted the sub channel of the SACD to +16dB. I could now hear an occasional small bass sound, but it was all in a single note. When the bass line descended, it disappeared. It sounded like there was a little bit of bass rolling off right at 80Hz that got crossed over to the sub, but below that, there was nothing.

It was interesting to compare the mixes/mastering on other aspects too. The string tone on the stereo was focused and natural. Typical sumptuous Stokowski violins. On the SACD, one part of the violin sound was front left and another frequency band of it was back left. It was as if the violins were smeared across the left wall. No focus. Unnatural sounding. Worse yet, the sheen on the top of the violin sound was filtered off. They sounded dull compared to the CD. I couldn't detect anything coming from front right on the quad. I guess that is where the basses were supposed to be. Interestingly enough, the quad version had an overdubbed flute solo in the rear left channel that didn't exist in the regular stereo version. I guess Stoki added that bit to spice up the surround effect.

In any case, I took the time to track this down and define the problem. At the beginning, I thought it had something to do with there being a bad LFE track. Then I thought it might be a bass management issue. Not it's clear that there is a bass rolloff at 80Hz on these discs that is eliminating the sub bass. I also think there is a high end rolloff that is blunting the treble above 10kHz. This is pretty clear in the triangle at the end of Immolation. It is all in a single frequency range like a bell with no upper harmonics. I can't comment on the weird left channel smear to the strings. That may have been a part of the original quad mix. It doesn't sound good though. All of these things are the exact same things I identified as problems with the Mancini Severinson disc, so it seems to be a pattern with Dutton / Vocalion releases. Less formal comparison of the Floyd Cramer, Hugo Montenegro and other Mancini release seem to back this up, but I haven't gone to the trouble of jacking my subwoofer settings to check them yet. Are these deliberate choices? Are they mastering errors? I don't know. But I do know that the sound on these discs is flawed when played on a full range system.

If anyone has one of these discs and wants to check for themselves, I'd suggest doing the subwoofer volume boost I describe above and see what you come up with. RCA in the 1960s was the gold standard of sound quality. These recordings really should sound as good as the best recordings you've ever heard.


http://www.avsforum.com/forum/112-surround-music-formats/2911666-dutton-vocalion-sacds-2.html#post54643080
 

4-earredwonder

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I understand exactly how you feel...due to health issues I made the overall decision to cut my internet time and focus on real life issues...but even if that hadn't happened I would have stopped posting on here on a regular basis...this is the best forum I have ever posted on...and it's due to Jon's "silent" leadership and the intellectual maturity of the members(most of them)..and very understanding moderators...but things started to change when AF started releasing the Quads and surround titles...at first it was like the proverbial honeymoon on here...everybody was happy...then unfortunately people started to become "greedy"...like an addict the more you give them the more they want and EXPECT...complaints about content..or this..or that surfaced...and suddenly a man(Marshall) that had bent over backwards to go against the grain(and most business models)to bring these timeless recordings out of the graveyard was being criticized...despite numerous explanations by Bmoura.. it fell on mostly deaf ears...that just started to wear on me...the final straw was the Fleetwood Mac releases and Sgt Peppers...to get those releases... at this point in time... was IMO close to a miracle...but when I returned after a few weeks after the Sgt Peppers release and saw some of the absurd comments about that release...that was the clincher for me...if you didn't like it..fine...but some of the complaints were just plain moronic...no other way to say it.....because if I would have been an active member I would have been in someone's face...and that's something I don't need in my life...this is supposed to be an enjoyable hobby...not some type of confrontation contest...

It's just the overall "entitlement" mindset that just saps all the joy out of these releases...and when you consider the reality of the situation.. it's mind blowing that some people can't appreciate these releases...it's gotten to the point where if it's not STEVEN WILSON quality and it's not cheap..and it's not a standalone or if it's not this or not that...then the moaning and groaning begins....it's not just a few anymore that have these entitlement issues...more and more seem to be heading in this direction...and some still won't face the fact that surround music is not a money maker...it's a TINY fraction of the disc market...and situations like AF and Dutton are rare.....the sad part is that these are... for the most part... great people on here...and when the music stops(releases stop)...they will realize how foolish they were to take all this for granted...

I hope you come back Simon...you are one of the good guys:)
While I do feel Clint and Simon's arguments are extremely valid about entitlement including criticism of AF, MO FI, ETC, I think a point is being missed. This IS the world wide net and agreeing to disagree has always been a hallmark of posting on ANY forum and Clint is absolutely correct that the moderators and site owner Jon Urban HAVE done a yeoman's job in keeping QQ Forum civil.

I've been into surround sound since the late 60's and have dabbled in just about every format available and as far as I'm concerned, this is a surprising and IMO unexpected renaissance of, as Clint would say, a TINY niche market in resolutions unimaginable at the outset of Quadraphonic Sound. And yes, even I've been guilty of being greedy [I WANT, I WANT!!!!] but after reading bmoura's 'patient' explanation of the rigamarole involved for US companies to license and release QUAD/5.1 music and the disinterest of MoFi to do the same, I finally understood in laymen's terms that what we WERE getting was indeed somewhat of a miracle. When AF could no longer release SACDs in surround formats, I, like MANY others, WAS disappointed but CLEARLY understood WHY. AF's CEO Marshall Blonstein who himself loves surround was beholden to the company's stockholders and had to pull the plug. But I did point out on many occasions that Marshall was instrumental in releasing MORE surround SACD titles than both MoFi and Analogue Productions COMBINED in a VERY short period and to this day, I appreciate what AF was able to release.

As for kvetching about pricey boxsets with NO stand alone surround discs: well, I'm certainly guilty of that. I was heartened when Alan Parsons convinced his releasing company to release a stand alone BD~A of Tales of Mystery and Imagination [and hopefully Eye In The Sky] as I have most of Parson's output in multiple formats and could see NO need for RBCDs and Vinyl. And I WILL stand firmly on that. And I do bitch, moan and complain when titles like Fleetwood Mac's Mirage and Tusk are released in LOSSY DTS formats......sorry, but it IS 2017 and the cost of releasing these MUCH sought after titles in hi res would certainly NOT break Warner's bank. But for the most part, I do applaud the fact that THEY'RE BEING RELEASED AT ALL.

As for Dutton Vocalion: I am SUPREMELY gratified that Michael Dutton was able to take up AF's banner and can release these older QUAD titles for probably a fraction of what AF was paying for licensing fees, etc. And I do caution all QQ posters to be VERY patient with Mr. Dutton's efforts and DO realize that his base does NOT consist of Metal Heads or Hard Rock devotees so whatever popular titles he DOES choose to release....consider it a blessing in disguise. And for the price D~V is charging, MOST ESPECIALLY those two~fers, also consider that a GIFT.

In closing, even though I have NO interest in Q8 or SQ/QS/EV/CD~4 LPs I applaud those posters who continue collecting them and derive much pleasure in doing so. And even though I love ALL genres of music, where SA~CDnet veered 99% toward the classical spectrum, QQ veers towards R & R but site owner Jon Urban has ensured through QQ's Private Messaging system that like minds can PM each other and further pursue whatever eclectic taste in music they desire.

Without getting political, the world is so fractured today that when I click onto QQ forum everyday, it always brings a smile to my face because even without filtering out questionable poster's comments, I always find something interesting and illuminating and I hope posters Clint Eastwood and Simon A can manage to do the same.

There is still SO much good in this beautiful world of ours and QQ Forum is SO good that it's very easy to forgive [AND forget] the few negatives which inevitably pop up.
 

ubertrout

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Below are comments from a post over at AVS from member sworth on the Dutton Vocalion Leopold Stokowski/London Symphony Orchestra - Brünnhilde's Immolation SACD. It's a bit long but he is basically saying that the SACD has no bass below 80Hz. I'm curious to know if there is an actual issue with this SACD or if sworth has an issue with his system. Are there any reviews here on QQ for this DV SACD? Does anyone own it that could offer their thoughts on the SQ specifically the bass? Thanks :)!

OK. I got home from work early so I threw on the Immolation SACD.

First I verified that all my bass management settings were correct. All my speakers were set to small. Crossover at 80Hz. Played a couple of minutes of an Elton John SACD. The sub was firing perfectly. Beautiful full sound. Then I put on the Immolation SACD and verified that it was indeed quad. No center channel. I skipped to the end with the fire music and kettle drums. I went over to the sub. Couldn't hear anything come out of it. Put my hand on it and felt a very faint vibration. Not enough to generate any sound. So I went to the AVR settings and dialed the sub up to maximum volume possible... +16dB over my normal setting. (That is 2 1/2 times the volume level and would blast bass with any other recording.) I could just hear a little bit of sound coming out, but it was all in one frequency band, because the kettle drums had a clear discernible note. When the basses would do a descending pattern of notes, the sound would be there and then disappear as it went lower. It seems to me that on a quad album if some sound is coming out of the sub, then bass management is working.

So I tried setting all the speakers to large to turn off bass management. That made no difference at all. Still no sub bass.

I went to my music server to search up the RCA stereo Bach transcriptions album from CD. It turns out the fill up was Handel's Water Music, not Immolation. So I chose Komm Susser Tod to compare to the SACD.

Immediately there was a difference. The CD started out with a sustained bass note like a pedal on an organ. Throughout the piece was a low frequency musical pattern like the bass line on an organ piece. That was almost inaudible on the SACD. I boosted the sub channel of the SACD to +16dB. I could now hear an occasional small bass sound, but it was all in a single note. When the bass line descended, it disappeared. It sounded like there was a little bit of bass rolling off right at 80Hz that got crossed over to the sub, but below that, there was nothing.

It was interesting to compare the mixes/mastering on other aspects too. The string tone on the stereo was focused and natural. Typical sumptuous Stokowski violins. On the SACD, one part of the violin sound was front left and another frequency band of it was back left. It was as if the violins were smeared across the left wall. No focus. Unnatural sounding. Worse yet, the sheen on the top of the violin sound was filtered off. They sounded dull compared to the CD. I couldn't detect anything coming from front right on the quad. I guess that is where the basses were supposed to be. Interestingly enough, the quad version had an overdubbed flute solo in the rear left channel that didn't exist in the regular stereo version. I guess Stoki added that bit to spice up the surround effect.

In any case, I took the time to track this down and define the problem. At the beginning, I thought it had something to do with there being a bad LFE track. Then I thought it might be a bass management issue. Not it's clear that there is a bass rolloff at 80Hz on these discs that is eliminating the sub bass. I also think there is a high end rolloff that is blunting the treble above 10kHz. This is pretty clear in the triangle at the end of Immolation. It is all in a single frequency range like a bell with no upper harmonics. I can't comment on the weird left channel smear to the strings. That may have been a part of the original quad mix. It doesn't sound good though. All of these things are the exact same things I identified as problems with the Mancini Severinson disc, so it seems to be a pattern with Dutton / Vocalion releases. Less formal comparison of the Floyd Cramer, Hugo Montenegro and other Mancini release seem to back this up, but I haven't gone to the trouble of jacking my subwoofer settings to check them yet. Are these deliberate choices? Are they mastering errors? I don't know. But I do know that the sound on these discs is flawed when played on a full range system.

If anyone has one of these discs and wants to check for themselves, I'd suggest doing the subwoofer volume boost I describe above and see what you come up with. RCA in the 1960s was the gold standard of sound quality. These recordings really should sound as good as the best recordings you've ever heard.


http://www.avsforum.com/forum/112-surround-music-formats/2911666-dutton-vocalion-sacds-2.html#post54643080
I'll put up that track tonight. I don't think I'll really be able to tell what's going on, but frankly listening to this music isn't exactly a chore. I'm not an audiophile, and my system isn't audiophile grade - it's just for enjoyment as an enthusiast.
 

DuncanS

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What if the only surviving original Quad master tape was frequency band limited for use in disc cutting? If it was for a CD4 release it would be at least 3dB down 20Hz-15kHz on all channels.

Below are comments from a post over at AVS from member sworth on the Dutton Vocalion Leopold Stokowski/London Symphony Orchestra - Brünnhilde's Immolation SACD. It's a bit long but he is basically saying that the SACD has no bass below 80Hz. I'm curious to know if there is an actual issue with this SACD or if sworth has an issue with his system. Are there any reviews here on QQ for this DV SACD? Does anyone own it that could offer their thoughts on the SQ specifically the bass? Thanks :)!

OK. I got home from work early so I threw on the Immolation SACD.

First I verified that all my bass management settings were correct. All my speakers were set to small. Crossover at 80Hz. Played a couple of minutes of an Elton John SACD. The sub was firing perfectly. Beautiful full sound. Then I put on the Immolation SACD and verified that it was indeed quad. No center channel. I skipped to the end with the fire music and kettle drums. I went over to the sub. Couldn't hear anything come out of it. Put my hand on it and felt a very faint vibration. Not enough to generate any sound. So I went to the AVR settings and dialed the sub up to maximum volume possible... +16dB over my normal setting. (That is 2 1/2 times the volume level and would blast bass with any other recording.) I could just hear a little bit of sound coming out, but it was all in one frequency band, because the kettle drums had a clear discernible note. When the basses would do a descending pattern of notes, the sound would be there and then disappear as it went lower. It seems to me that on a quad album if some sound is coming out of the sub, then bass management is working.

So I tried setting all the speakers to large to turn off bass management. That made no difference at all. Still no sub bass.

I went to my music server to search up the RCA stereo Bach transcriptions album from CD. It turns out the fill up was Handel's Water Music, not Immolation. So I chose Komm Susser Tod to compare to the SACD.

Immediately there was a difference. The CD started out with a sustained bass note like a pedal on an organ. Throughout the piece was a low frequency musical pattern like the bass line on an organ piece. That was almost inaudible on the SACD. I boosted the sub channel of the SACD to +16dB. I could now hear an occasional small bass sound, but it was all in a single note. When the bass line descended, it disappeared. It sounded like there was a little bit of bass rolling off right at 80Hz that got crossed over to the sub, but below that, there was nothing.

It was interesting to compare the mixes/mastering on other aspects too. The string tone on the stereo was focused and natural. Typical sumptuous Stokowski violins. On the SACD, one part of the violin sound was front left and another frequency band of it was back left. It was as if the violins were smeared across the left wall. No focus. Unnatural sounding. Worse yet, the sheen on the top of the violin sound was filtered off. They sounded dull compared to the CD. I couldn't detect anything coming from front right on the quad. I guess that is where the basses were supposed to be. Interestingly enough, the quad version had an overdubbed flute solo in the rear left channel that didn't exist in the regular stereo version. I guess Stoki added that bit to spice up the surround effect.

In any case, I took the time to track this down and define the problem. At the beginning, I thought it had something to do with there being a bad LFE track. Then I thought it might be a bass management issue. Not it's clear that there is a bass rolloff at 80Hz on these discs that is eliminating the sub bass. I also think there is a high end rolloff that is blunting the treble above 10kHz. This is pretty clear in the triangle at the end of Immolation. It is all in a single frequency range like a bell with no upper harmonics. I can't comment on the weird left channel smear to the strings. That may have been a part of the original quad mix. It doesn't sound good though. All of these things are the exact same things I identified as problems with the Mancini Severinson disc, so it seems to be a pattern with Dutton / Vocalion releases. Less formal comparison of the Floyd Cramer, Hugo Montenegro and other Mancini release seem to back this up, but I haven't gone to the trouble of jacking my subwoofer settings to check them yet. Are these deliberate choices? Are they mastering errors? I don't know. But I do know that the sound on these discs is flawed when played on a full range system.

If anyone has one of these discs and wants to check for themselves, I'd suggest doing the subwoofer volume boost I describe above and see what you come up with. RCA in the 1960s was the gold standard of sound quality. These recordings really should sound as good as the best recordings you've ever heard.


http://www.avsforum.com/forum/112-surround-music-formats/2911666-dutton-vocalion-sacds-2.html#post54643080
 

ubertrout

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What if the only surviving original Quad master tape was frequency band limited for use in disc cutting? If it was for a CD4 release it would be at least 3dB down 20Hz-15kHz on all channels.
I was wondering something like this too. However, for the Gotterdamerung excerpt, Michael Dutton made the mix, it's not actually vintage (the Bach excerpt they compare is vintage).
 

Bill Mac

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What if the only surviving original Quad master tape was frequency band limited for use in disc cutting? If it was for a CD4 release it would be at least 3dB down 20Hz-15kHz on all channels.
Duncan,

I'm not the most technically knowledgeable on the recording process but would the issue you mention cause the low bass issues on the DV Leopold Stokowski/London Symphony Orchestra SACD that the AVS member is reporting?

Bill
 

DuncanS

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It could be. Even stereo LPs were band limited especially at Low Frequencies. You can often hear break through from one groove into the next on LPs which were packed tightly to fit onto one side to get the maximum time per side. CD4 was a system with good channel separation (basically 2 FM stereo 'radios stations' on an LP to give Quad, hence 4 channels of approx. 20Hz-15kHz), but if I remember correctly too much Bass could cause a stylus to skip on CD4 and/or mess up the pick-up of the modulated L-R channels on the grooves. So I believe they reduced the Bass on some recordings, plus there would be wide-band compression to help as well. Someone much more knowledge on CD4 can say if I'm wrong. But +16dB is an awful lot of gain to add, so that's what made me suspect it wasn't there in the first place.

My own view is that Dutton-Vocalion will get the best they can out of an old tape. I'm not a great Classical listener (I prefer the more modern composers when I do).


Duncan,

I'm not the most technically knowledgeable on the recording process but would the issue you mention cause the low bass issues on the Leopold Stokowski/London Symphony Orchestra SACD that the AVS member is reporting?

Bill
 

4-earredwonder

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It could be. Even stereo LPs were band limited especially at Low Frequencies. You can often hear break through from one groove into the next on LPs which were packed tightly to fit onto one side to get the maximum time per side. CD4 was a system with good channel separation (basically 2 FM stereo 'radios stations' on an LP to give Quad, hence 4 channels of approx. 20Hz-15kHz), but if I remember correctly too much Bass could cause a stylus to skip on CD4 and/or mess up the pick-up of the modulated L-R channels on the grooves. So I believe they reduced the Bass on some recordings, plus there would be wide-band compression to help as well. Someone much more knowledge on CD4 can say if I'm wrong. But +16dB is an awful lot of gain to add, so that's what made me suspect it wasn't there in the first place.

My own view is that Dutton-Vocalion will get the best they can out of an old tape. I'm not a great Classical listener (I prefer the more modern composers when I do).
I recall distinctly that in the early days of QUAD and even regular stereo vinyl, if there was a huge amount of bass on recordings which had more than 25 minutes of content per side, the bass was greatly attenuated as those earlier, less sophisticated, TT cartridges would literally jump out of the groove [and yes, it happened to me] which is why a lot of bass heavy albums limited the content to 20 or so minutes per side....with wider grooves to accommodate those bass heavy recordings.

So if they utilized those same masters with attenuated bass output [for vinyl replication] to press current SACDs, that same bass deficiency would exist in those master tapes....which is why adding a judicial bass boost might render the outcome more agreeable to modern listeners. Really, NO big deal!
 
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Bob Romano

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I have just did a quick listen through of all 4 titles. There is absolutely no problem with bass on these discs. They sound fantastic actually. Nice bass and they sound really smooth. Please buy with confidence. I will continue to purchase from DV. And once again.... you can't beat the price. Amazing!!!
 

Bill Mac

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I have just did a quick listen through of all 4 titles. There is absolutely no problem with bass on these discs. They sound fantastic actually. Nice bass and they sound really smooth. Please buy with confidence. I will continue to purchase from DV. And once again.... you can't beat the price. Amazing!!!
Bob,

Thanks for your thoughts! Is one of the four SACDs the Leopold Stokowski/London Symphony Orchestra - Stokowski conducts Bach DV SACD?

Bill
 

~dave~~wave~

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Unfortunately, and I'm a culprit, this thread has gone all over the map while originating with a specific complaint from a troll on another forum about two specific titles.

  1. Stokowski Bach Transcriptions / Wagner Brunnhilde's Immolation
  2. Henry Mancini 'Six Hours Past Sunset/Warm Shade of Ivory' 2fer
(Some kind soul will correct me if I'm wrong.)

I have just did a quick listen through of all 4 titles. There is absolutely no problem with bass on these discs. They sound fantastic actually. Nice bass and they sound really smooth. Please buy with confidence. I will continue to purchase from DV. And once again.... you can't beat the price. Amazing!!!
Right you are, Bob, on the new titles, especially Musicmagic.
I'm freaking right now listening to my bass hero Stanley Clarke isolated over my left shoulder dueling with Chick Corea's synths and Gayle Moran's vocals in the fronts.
No subwoofer or bass management necessary on my system, with full-size non-satellite rears.
 

Bill Mac

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Unfortunately, and I'm a culprit, this thread has gone all over the map while originating with a specific complaint from a troll on another forum about two specific titles.

  1. Stokowski Bach Transcriptions / Wagner Brunnhilde's Immolation
  2. Henry Mancini 'Six Hours Past Sunset/Warm Shade of Ivory' 2fer
(Some kind soul will correct me if I'm wrong.)



Right you are, Bob, on the new titles, especially Musicmagic.
I'm freaking right now listening to my bass hero Stanley Clarke isolated over my left shoulder dueling with Chick Corea's synths and Gayle Moran's vocals in the fronts.
No subwoofer or bass management necessary on my system, with full-size non-satellite rears.
Dave,

Those two titles Stokowski Bach Transcriptions / Wagner Brunnhilde's Immolation and Henry Mancini 'Six Hours Past Sunset/Warm Shade of Ivory' are the ones I'm trying to get feedback on. Those are the ones sworth (AVS) is claiming the bass issues with. It'd be nice if there are any QQ members that have heard these specific discs and posted what they thought.

Bill
 

halbroome

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I have just did a quick listen through of all 4 titles. There is absolutely no problem with bass on these discs. They sound fantastic actually. Nice bass and they sound really smooth. Please buy with confidence. I will continue to purchase from DV. And once again.... you can't beat the price. Amazing!!!
Currently listening the two-fer Pure Prairie League. Great sound! Smooth slide guitar, vocals, and discreet rears that aren't a simple "drums here, guitar there" if ya know what I mean (and I think you do).

If I had a complaint, it was that I've become used to 5.1, and the sound is very 4.0ish. Probably the original quad, but I miss the central front 8'(.
 

~dave~~wave~

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Dave,

Those two titles Stokowski Bach Transcriptions / Wagner Brunnhilde's Immolation and Henry Mancini 'Six Hours Past Sunset/Warm Shade of Ivory' are the ones I'm trying to get feedback on. Those are the ones sworth (AVS) is claiming the bass issues with. It'd be nice if there are any QQ members that have heard these specific discs and posted what they thought.

Bill
Bill, this has gone so far off the rails, you might be better off starting a new thread.

There's no controlling us chattering monkeys.

:howl :mad:@:
;););)
 

Bill Mac

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Bill, this has gone so far off the rails, you might be better off starting a new thread.

There's no controlling us chattering monkeys.

:howl :mad:@:
;););)
Dave,

I hear what you're saying. But it's fine as I don't want to start another thread questioning the quality of DV SACDs. I'm a long time member of the Steve Hoffman forum and things can get crazy over there as well. I just received the Santana, Return to Forever and Pure Prairie League DV SACDs today. Can't wait to give them a good listen, hopefully tomorrow :).

Bill
 

ubertrout

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Below are comments from a post over at AVS from member sworth on the Dutton Vocalion Leopold Stokowski/London Symphony Orchestra - Brünnhilde's Immolation SACD. It's a bit long but he is basically saying that the SACD has no bass below 80Hz. I'm curious to know if there is an actual issue with this SACD or if sworth has an issue with his system. Are there any reviews here on QQ for this DV SACD? Does anyone own it that could offer their thoughts on the SQ specifically the bass? Thanks :)!

OK. I got home from work early so I threw on the Immolation SACD.

First I verified that all my bass management settings were correct. All my speakers were set to small. Crossover at 80Hz. Played a couple of minutes of an Elton John SACD. The sub was firing perfectly. Beautiful full sound. Then I put on the Immolation SACD and verified that it was indeed quad. No center channel. I skipped to the end with the fire music and kettle drums. I went over to the sub. Couldn't hear anything come out of it. Put my hand on it and felt a very faint vibration. Not enough to generate any sound. So I went to the AVR settings and dialed the sub up to maximum volume possible... +16dB over my normal setting. (That is 2 1/2 times the volume level and would blast bass with any other recording.) I could just hear a little bit of sound coming out, but it was all in one frequency band, because the kettle drums had a clear discernible note. When the basses would do a descending pattern of notes, the sound would be there and then disappear as it went lower. It seems to me that on a quad album if some sound is coming out of the sub, then bass management is working.

So I tried setting all the speakers to large to turn off bass management. That made no difference at all. Still no sub bass.

I went to my music server to search up the RCA stereo Bach transcriptions album from CD. It turns out the fill up was Handel's Water Music, not Immolation. So I chose Komm Susser Tod to compare to the SACD.

Immediately there was a difference. The CD started out with a sustained bass note like a pedal on an organ. Throughout the piece was a low frequency musical pattern like the bass line on an organ piece. That was almost inaudible on the SACD. I boosted the sub channel of the SACD to +16dB. I could now hear an occasional small bass sound, but it was all in a single note. When the bass line descended, it disappeared. It sounded like there was a little bit of bass rolling off right at 80Hz that got crossed over to the sub, but below that, there was nothing.

It was interesting to compare the mixes/mastering on other aspects too. The string tone on the stereo was focused and natural. Typical sumptuous Stokowski violins. On the SACD, one part of the violin sound was front left and another frequency band of it was back left. It was as if the violins were smeared across the left wall. No focus. Unnatural sounding. Worse yet, the sheen on the top of the violin sound was filtered off. They sounded dull compared to the CD. I couldn't detect anything coming from front right on the quad. I guess that is where the basses were supposed to be. Interestingly enough, the quad version had an overdubbed flute solo in the rear left channel that didn't exist in the regular stereo version. I guess Stoki added that bit to spice up the surround effect.

In any case, I took the time to track this down and define the problem. At the beginning, I thought it had something to do with there being a bad LFE track. Then I thought it might be a bass management issue. Not it's clear that there is a bass rolloff at 80Hz on these discs that is eliminating the sub bass. I also think there is a high end rolloff that is blunting the treble above 10kHz. This is pretty clear in the triangle at the end of Immolation. It is all in a single frequency range like a bell with no upper harmonics. I can't comment on the weird left channel smear to the strings. That may have been a part of the original quad mix. It doesn't sound good though. All of these things are the exact same things I identified as problems with the Mancini Severinson disc, so it seems to be a pattern with Dutton / Vocalion releases. Less formal comparison of the Floyd Cramer, Hugo Montenegro and other Mancini release seem to back this up, but I haven't gone to the trouble of jacking my subwoofer settings to check them yet. Are these deliberate choices? Are they mastering errors? I don't know. But I do know that the sound on these discs is flawed when played on a full range system.

If anyone has one of these discs and wants to check for themselves, I'd suggest doing the subwoofer volume boost I describe above and see what you come up with. RCA in the 1960s was the gold standard of sound quality. These recordings really should sound as good as the best recordings you've ever heard.


http://www.avsforum.com/forum/112-surround-music-formats/2911666-dutton-vocalion-sacds-2.html#post54643080
So, I happen to have this recording on RBCD as well - it's on the 14 CD "Stokowski Stereo Collection 1954-1975" set (still under $30 and highly recommended - many of the CDs are Dolby Surround encoded, although I don't think the relevant ones are: https://www.amazon.com/Leopold-Stokowski-Stereo-Collection-1954-1975/dp/B006ZJJ70O)

I was kind of prepared to make certain allowances for the D-V version. The Stereo Collection was a spare no expense collection released in 1997, when the tapes were in this case just over 20 years old (the 2012 reissue is all the same transfers). However, on sitting down and listening to both versions, I only had one reaction - what on earth is the poster at AVS talking about?

The D-V version is leaps and bounds over the RBCD, and I listened to the CD version both in 2-channel and Dolby PLII surround. Plenty of low bass in the beginning and throughout the 5 minutes of Komm Susser Tod. The only conclusion I can reach is that the original poster is a bass freak who is being stymied from using his sub by the fact that the SACD is authored in 5.1, with an empty subwoofer channel.

In other words...the D-V version is significantly ahead of Sony's RBCD version. Buy it.
 
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