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Are Dutton Vocalion Surround Sound SACDs "Improperly Mastered"?

Bill Mac

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So, I happen to have this recording on RBCD as well - it's on the 14 CD "Stokowski Stereo Collection 1954-1975" set (still under $30 and highly recommended - many of the CDs are Dolby Surround encoded, although I don't think the relevant ones are: https://www.amazon.com/Leopold-Stokowski-Stereo-Collection-1954-1975/dp/B006ZJJ70O)

I was kind of prepared to make certain allowances for the D-V version. The Stereo Collection was a spare no expense collection released in 1997, when the tapes were in this case just over 20 years old (the 2012 reissue is all the same transfers). However, on sitting down and listening to both versions, I only had one reaction - what on earth is the poster at AVS talking about?

The D-V version is leaps and bounds over the RBCD, and I listened to the CD version both in 2-channel and Dolby PLII surround. Plenty of low bass in the beginning and throughout the 5 minutes of Komm Susser Tod. The only conclusion I can reach is that the original poster is a bass freak who is being stymied from using his sub by the fact that the SACD is authored in 5.1, with an empty subwoofer channel.

In other words...the D-V version is significantly ahead of Sony's RBCD version. Buy it.
ubertrout,

Thanks so much for your thoughts! The member from over at AVS is quite a piece of work and I tend to think he is just trolling most of the time. I took exception to his slighting of the DV SACDs and even more so for his very negative comments of the QQ forum. I'm going to copy and post your very informative post over at AVS. Thanks again :)!

Bill
 

sukothai

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Here's the Stokowski frequency map for the Right Rear channel. You can see the Wagner (starting at about 50 minutes) has less going on in the sub 80 Hz bands, but its certainly not silent. In my listening (and the frequency map confirms it) there is more bass in the rear channels.

stokowski-spectrum-Rs.jpg

Here's a zoom of everything below 100 Hz on the Wagner:

stokowski-spectrum-Rs-zoom.PNG
 

JonUrban

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Bill,

Thanks for battling for the forum! (y)

However, I might suggest just dropping it. It doesn't matter. This guy really believes there's an issue and "we" are trying to hide it. Do you know what? I don't care what he thinks and I have learned a long time ago that trying to win and argument on the internet is impossible.

QQ will march on with or without his blessing. As long as we enjoy our discs, the rest of the world is irrelevant. Just as long as everyone here knows that if there is an issue with any disc, you are always free to bring it up and share your findings.

His accusations of having posts deleted because they spoke the truth are groundless.
 

4-earredwonder

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Bill,

Thanks for battling for the forum! (y)

However, I might suggest just dropping it. It doesn't matter. This guy really believes there's an issue and "we" are trying to hide it. Do you know what? I don't care what he thinks and I have learned a long time ago that trying to win and argument on the internet is impossible.

QQ will march on with or without his blessing. As long as we enjoy our discs, the rest of the world is irrelevant. Just as long as everyone here knows that if there is an issue with any disc, you are always free to bring it up and share your findings.

His accusations of having posts deleted because they spoke the truth are groundless.
Which is what I'm been saying ALL along: Accentuate the positive and ignore the trolls which exist in EVERY facet of our society....including the WORLDWIDE net!

It's MOST obvious to me, at least, that if he [the dissenter] isn't hearing bass from D~V SACDs, his system is improperly set up.
 

Bill Mac

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Bill,

Thanks for battling for the forum! (y)

However, I might suggest just dropping it. It doesn't matter. This guy really believes there's an issue and "we" are trying to hide it. Do you know what? I don't care what he thinks and I have learned a long time ago that trying to win and argument on the internet is impossible.

QQ will march on with or without his blessing. As long as we enjoy our discs, the rest of the world is irrelevant. Just as long as everyone here knows that if there is an issue with any disc, you are always free to bring it up and share your findings.

His accusations of having posts deleted because they spoke the truth are groundless.
Hi Jon,

You are correct in that it's best to not interact with forum trolls. I just felt that his earlier remarks needed a rebuttal. The guy is never going to change and will always play the victim when his BS is challenged. Thanks for creating an excellent forum and feel it's a great place to get information and reviews on quad and all surround music :)!

Bill
 

timbre4

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Hi Jon,
The guy is never going to change and will always play the victim when his BS is challenged. Bill
On vacation now and just responded to Jon that it was me. I took this guy on as best I could. Kudos to SteelyDave for going way beyond in proving this fellow has a system problem on his end.

He refused to try the discs on another system or ask for technical help because he apparently knows everything.

I'm glad to say that in over 15 years of QQ that I've only experienced 2-3 people this hopeless!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
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Clint Eastwood

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While I do feel Clint and Simon's arguments are extremely valid about entitlement including criticism of AF, MO FI, ETC, I think a point is being missed. This IS the world wide net and agreeing to disagree has always been a hallmark of posting on ANY forum and Clint is absolutely correct that the moderators and site owner Jon Urban HAVE done a yeoman's job in keeping QQ Forum civil.

I've been into surround sound since the late 60's and have dabbled in just about every format available and as far as I'm concerned, this is a surprising and IMO unexpected renaissance of, as Clint would say, a TINY niche market in resolutions unimaginable at the outset of Quadraphonic Sound. And yes, even I've been guilty of being greedy [I WANT, I WANT!!!!] but after reading bmoura's 'patient' explanation of the rigamarole involved for US companies to license and release QUAD/5.1 music and the disinterest of MoFi to do the same, I finally understood in laymen's terms that what we WERE getting was indeed somewhat of a miracle. When AF could no longer release SACDs in surround formats, I, like MANY others, WAS disappointed but CLEARLY understood WHY. AF's CEO Marshall Blonstein who himself loves surround was beholden to the company's stockholders and had to pull the plug. But I did point out on many occasions that Marshall was instrumental in releasing MORE surround SACD titles than both MoFi and Analogue Productions COMBINED in a VERY short period and to this day, I appreciate what AF was able to release.

As for kvetching about pricey boxsets with NO stand alone surround discs: well, I'm certainly guilty of that. I was heartened when Alan Parsons convinced his releasing company to release a stand alone BD~A of Tales of Mystery and Imagination [and hopefully Eye In The Sky] as I have most of Parson's output in multiple formats and could see NO need for RBCDs and Vinyl. And I WILL stand firmly on that. And I do bitch, moan and complain when titles like Fleetwood Mac's Mirage and Tusk are released in LOSSY DTS formats......sorry, but it IS 2017 and the cost of releasing these MUCH sought after titles in hi res would certainly NOT break Warner's bank. But for the most part, I do applaud the fact that THEY'RE BEING RELEASED AT ALL.

As for Dutton Vocalion: I am SUPREMELY gratified that Michael Dutton was able to take up AF's banner and can release these older QUAD titles for probably a fraction of what AF was paying for licensing fees, etc. And I do caution all QQ posters to be VERY patient with Mr. Dutton's efforts and DO realize that his base does NOT consist of Metal Heads or Hard Rock devotees so whatever popular titles he DOES choose to release....consider it a blessing in disguise. And for the price D~V is charging, MOST ESPECIALLY those two~fers, also consider that a GIFT.

In closing, even though I have NO interest in Q8 or SQ/QS/EV/CD~4 LPs I applaud those posters who continue collecting them and derive much pleasure in doing so. And even though I love ALL genres of music, where SA~CDnet veered 99% toward the classical spectrum, QQ veers towards R & R but site owner Jon Urban has ensured through QQ's Private Messaging system that like minds can PM each other and further pursue whatever eclectic taste in music they desire.

Without getting political, the world is so fractured today that when I click onto QQ forum everyday, it always brings a smile to my face because even without filtering out questionable poster's comments, I always find something interesting and illuminating and I hope posters Clint Eastwood and Simon A can manage to do the same.

There is still SO much good in this beautiful world of ours and QQ Forum is SO good that it's very easy to forgive [AND forget] the few negatives which inevitably pop up.
I do find myself getting "sucked back in" again to forum life...I must admit...it is indeed a reprieve from the harsh realities of life...and just a lot of great people on here that I miss...but I noticed the post by Ryan(who provides a LOT of great information on here)that Steven Wilson ACTUALLY used the word "ENTITLED" in a recent article...when mentioning how much went on these discs and people still complained...."And yet there are people who still feel ENTITLED to more. It's extraordinary the comments I read about them sometimes"... I just hope Steven doesn't come on here sometime and see the comments of some members who are complaining....from that article it seems like his hectic schedule is taking a toll on him...he might be one of these guys that could bow out earlier than expected from working on other music and just do his own..

I don't have any problem with DTS. I have plenty of excellent sounding discs with DTS....and I would venture to say that most on here like it when the mixing and mastering is done at a high standard...in regards to Fleetwood Mac...I'm not so sure that cost was the motivating factor for using DTS..
 

4-earredwonder

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I do find myself getting "sucked back in" again to forum life...I must admit...it is indeed a reprieve from the harsh realities of life...and just a lot of great people on here that I miss...but I noticed the post by Ryan(who provides a LOT of great information on here)that Steven Wilson ACTUALLY used the word "ENTITLED" in a recent article...when mentioning how much went on these discs and people still complained...."And yet there are people who still feel ENTITLED to more. It's extraordinary the comments I read about them sometimes"... I just hope Steven doesn't come on here sometime and see the comments of some members who are complaining....from that article it seems like his hectic schedule is taking a toll on him...he might be one of these guys that could bow out earlier than expected from working on other music and just do his own..

I don't have any problem with DTS. I have plenty of excellent sounding discs with DTS....and I would venture to say that most on here like it when the mixing and mastering is done at a high standard...in regards to Fleetwood Mac...I'm not so sure that cost was the motivating factor for using DTS..
Clint, I think if Steve Wilson does from time to time read some of the comments here on QQ he'd be gratified to know that he IS somewhat of a superstar....and would simply 'brush off' the negatives that do appear from time to time.

I'm sure being a musician for so many years has enabled him to form a protective shell because as in every profession there are always those who genuinely appreciate what you are doing and those who simply don't get it or enjoy his brand of musicianship.

As for the 'entitlement' issue: those who know the history of surround don't share that sentiment. I, for one, am grateful when those old Quad/5.1 masters are dusted off and released on physical disc. Yeah, AF spoiled us for awhile but with the entire music business in 'flux' it's still a miracle we got what we got.

And the rule of thumb is: If you really don't like what is being released in QUAD or 5.1.....don't buy it and then bitch later that it's not your type of music. It's like forcing yourself to eat food that you'll later regret! That simple.

While Steve Wilson is now enjoying a #1 UK hit with To The Bone I'm sure he'll be busy touring and promoting his newest success but he has intimated that he'll continue to remix for 5.1, so that's encouraging. And he does have a lot of unreleased material in the can which is likewise encouraging but hopefully others [NEW BLOOD] will be inspired by his efforts and take up the banner of remixing for surround.

And to those who really DIG surround: every time you turn on your cable TV, it's there in abundance and every time you watch a newly minted Blu Ray Video it's also there. So if you really think that doesn't count for something.........Get over it! We ARE surrounded whether you like it or NOT....and further realize that these 'soundtracks' are being mixed by some of the BEST sound engineers in the business!
 
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