Grass Roots Greatest question...

[Bob Romano]

I seem to have two different wav files of this album both from Q8.

They seem to have different channel placings and mixes in places. I know this was one of those C and H GRT carts.

So how do I tell which mix is which? And which of these mixes is the preferred to have? (I know... both because they are quad!!)

Both seem to have been done by Tab but neither are marked as to the C or H designation.

 

[sspsandy]

The bigger question is how a one hit wonder band could have a whole album of greatest hits.

 

[Q-Eight]

The bigger question is how a one hit wonder band could have a whole album of greatest hits.

One hit Wonder Band? Ouch. That's a little harsh considering these guys had two platinum albums, two gold albums, thirteen gold singles and charted singles a total of twenty-nine times between 1967 and 1972. The Grass Roots were on the Billboard charts for 307 straight weeks and sold over 20 million records worldwide.

One hit Wonder? Not so much....

Anywho, yes there are two versions of the Q8. The cartridge with the H has the channel error corrected and features all the "proper" hits.
The C cartridge has left side channel error (front to back swapped) and features different mixes of almost all the songs! Alternate vocals on Sooner or Later, the unused organ solo on Temptation Eyes, Things I should have Said is an outtake with flubbed lead vocal.... the list goes on.

Both are great to have if you're a Grass Roots fan

 

[timbre4]

They did sell a bunch of records in the day; at Cablevision we must've seen the group's appearance on Scene '70 about a thousand times......

 

[winopener]

One question: i have the Q8 cart and as always in the GRT-style the label doesn't list the author of the song.
If someone has the LP, could please post a scan of the label or part of the back cover? There are two songs (Bella Linda and Let's live for today) that are english covers of original italian songs and will like to see if they credited correctly.

 

[JonUrban]

They have far more than one hit. It's a pleasant Q8, really. I have the 'H' version.

 

[Bob Romano]

One question: i have the Q8 cart and as always in the GRT-style the label doesn't list the author of the song.
If someone has the LP, could please post a scan of the label or part of the back cover? There are two songs (Bella Linda and Let's live for today) that are english covers of original italian songs and will like to see if they credited correctly.

Bella Linda: Steve Barri/Lucio Battisti/Gross, Barry A./Mogul, I.



Let's Live For Today: Michael Julien/Ivan Mogull/David Shapiro
http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=33:0jfoxzwjldhe

Link is for the story of LLFT.

 

[Q-Eight]

To hear some snippets of the alternate versions, check here:
http://the-grassroots.com/html/audio.html

There seems to be multiple versions of some songs. I have three versions of "Where were you..." One with vocals by Rob Grill, another with vocals by Bill Fulton and yet another with producer P.F. Sloan singing. Three versions of "Temptation Eyes" - (Single Version, Album Version, Alternate Solo version)....

Not to mention every compilation out there has different mixes, some with the organ cranked way up, some with the guitar up high, you name it - they're all over the place.

 

[sspsandy]

I must have slept through their career, I only remember Midnight Confessions. I can't recall hearing any of the other songs on this record. I was just being sarcastic anyway.

 

[Quadzilla]

I must have slept through their career, I only remember Midnight Confessions. I can't recall hearing any of the other songs on this record. I was just being sarcastic anyway.

I thought you were dead on Sandy. They were so lame!

 

[JonUrban]

I thought you were dead on Sandy. They were so lame!

While the 'hits' may be in the forgettable class, I have a weakness for "Temptation Eyes". Not sure why. Maybe it's regional. They got a lot of airplay here in the Northeast.

 

[Old Quad Guy]

While the 'hits' may be in the forgettable class, I have a weakness for "Temptation Eyes". Not sure why. Maybe it's regional. They got a lot of airplay here in the Northeast.

Here is a record they we're on put out by local Rock station KYA 1260 AM in 1969: 21 Golden Gate Greats (Vol 2)

http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=10:kbfpxqyaldke

They definitively had a West Coast San Francisco Hippy vibe (or at the very least fit in here what was going on then) and their songs we're played here in the San Francisco bay area all the time for years and years, mainly on the AM. I love their music. I'm looking forward to hearing the Grass Roots in Quad for the first time.

Are these the songs that are in Quad? If so, that would be killer!
1. Sooner or Later
2. Where Were You When I Needed You
3. Heaven Knows
4. Let's Live for Today
5. Temptation Eyes
6. River Is Wide
7. Come on and Say It
8. Midnight Confessions
9. Wait a Million Years
10. Walking Through the Country
11. Lovin' Things
12. Things I Should Have Said
13. Bella Linda
14. Baby Hold On
15. Feelings
16. I Can Turn off the Rain

 

[Bob Romano]

I am working on that right now. Those are indeed the songs on the 8 tracks. Boy that C cart is really f'ed up. The vocals on "Things I Should Have Said" are hysterical. I can't imagine anyone mixing it all the way through and not noticing that. The only one I wish was on there is "Glory Bound". All in all though a great album. They got tons of play here in Chicago on WLS and WCFL. Both AM giants in their day.

 

[Q-Eight]

The "H" cartridge has all the stereo hits exactly like we know them. The "C" cartridge has many notable differences.

I will start by mentioning that on both Quad versions, instrument/vocal layout is completely different.

Here's a bit of a rundown of differences that I can hear:

1. Sooner or Later
- Alternate "Soul shouting" by Dennis Provisor, Missing Organ
2. Where Were You When I Needed You
- Not much could be done here *
3. Heaven Knows
- Missing handclap, Organ mixed lower, emphasis on guitars.
4. Let's Live for Today
- Again, not much can be done here *
5. Temptation Eyes
- Alternate Organ Solo, Double-Tracked Lead Vocals on chorus
6. River Is Wide
- Missing Handclap, Missing Piano entirely! Major emphasis on tambourine
7. Midnight Confessions
- Organ mixed down low, Stereo Brass Section, Slightly slower tempo
8. Come on and Say It
- The only item missing is Dennis' background "all right!" at 1:30. Identical to stereo mix otherwise.
9. Wait a Million Years
- Tambourine comes in much later in the song, like they forget to move the slider up
10. Walking Through the Country
- Different vocal take. Instrumental sounds identical to stereo version.
11. Lovin' Things
- Different Vocal Take, Percussion and rhythm guitar mixed higher
12. Things I Should Have Said
- Outtake. Different vocal track, accidental flub, different background vocals, different band track (Most notable difference: Drums! Rick was feeling creative on this take.)
13. Bella Linda
- Slower Tempo, early fade
14. Baby Hold On
- Early fadeout.
15. Feelings
- Identical to stereo.
16. I Can Turn off the Rain
- Vocals have heavy delay added giving a much richer vocal atmosphere. Possibly alternate vocal take, Instrumental track sounds identical.

I will say the "Alternate version" tape is a much more playful mix. Through-out the album, lead vocals are seperated and up front while background/harmony vocals are in the rear and duke it out front/back over the course of the tape.

* "Where were you" and "Let's Live for Today" were recorded on 4 track.

 

[Q-Eight]

I am working on that right now. Those are indeed the songs on the 8 tracks. Boy that C cart is really f'ed up. The vocals on "Things I Should Have Said" are hysterical. I can't imagine anyone mixing it all the way through and not noticing that. The only one I wish was on there is "Glory Bound". All in all though a great album. They got tons of play here in Chicago on WLS and WCFL. Both AM giants in their day.

It really makes me wonder. How did it work back in the day? Did ABC/Dunhill send a 4-channel Master to GRT for reproduction, or did GRT receive session tapes, mix it themselves, THEN reproduce it?

It makes sense that the latter scenario is what really happened. *IF* GRT mixed their Quads themselves, and were given no instruction, they'd mix it to whatever the engineer thought sounded good, right?

Well, what if ABC caught a listen to this first tape and told GRT they were unhappy with the results? Well, then a second mix would be prepared. (16 Greatest Hits was a very popular album - going Platinum!) So, I could understand ABC and GRT wanting to get it right.

There are, believe it or not, three variations of this cartridge. The cartridge with the alternate mixes, and then two releases with the "fixed" mixes. One with the Red Q8 symbol, and an even later one with the white bars along the sides of the album art with "quadraphonic" in red text.

I really wish they'd have had another Quad album. Alotta Milage, Movin' Along or even their swan song self titled album on Haven Records all would have been good candidates for Quad.... especially their last album! Mamacita in Quad.... mmmmmmm

 

[Q-Eight]

And finally, Tab did the conversion on my very minty "C" version cartridge. He has both listed on his site....

 

[ArmyOfQuad]

The other grass roots conversion done by tab was from my tape.

 

[zabble]

I guess perhaps the next question might be:

Do the QS encoded L.P.s have different versions or mixes?

 

[Q-Eight]

I guess perhaps the next question might be:

Do the QS encoded L.P.s have different versions or mixes?

Different versions, no.
Different mixes, yes.

The QS LP (which I also have) decodes a little differently. For the most part the mix is similar to the "H" version Q8, though less discrete with lead vocals in all 4 channels. It decodes AWESOME thru the Adobe Audition QS decoder.

Also the "20th Century Masters Collection" CD also has *new* stereo mixes. Much more discrete than the original ones.

Which makes me wonder if the Grass Roots multi's are still in existance. I've heard the stories of the Big Dump that ABC/Dunhill did in the mid-70's when they were going thru some rough times, prior to being purchased by MCA. I've read that all mono tapes were disposed of as well as multitrack sessions. Supposedly only stereo masters were kept.

 

[zabble]

Different versions, no.
Different mixes, yes.

So are you saying the diifferent mixes found on the q8s are also available on L.P. as well and if so, how do can you tell which L.P. has which mix?