How do you check your channel assignment?

[J. PUPSTER]

Let's agree to disagree then. As I explained above, the swapped front channels on the SACD would be the obvious consequence of the engineer paying attention to detail when remixing this material for multichannel. If the front channel assignment would be kept as in the stereo release, to match the rears Cobham would have to be playing with his back towards the listener and the rest of the band, which is not a reasonable choice (and this seems to be the choice on the Q8 at least, since the front matches stereo and the drum roll goes in a circle).

However, going back to SACD players: please correct me if I am wrong, but it seems to be a confirmed conclusion of this discussion that some of these players swap rear channels, depending on whether they are playing a 5.0 or 5.1 discs. This is quite surprising.

Have you ever read about this issue anywhere else?

 

[J. PUPSTER]

Also, do you have any other players or receivers to double check this out on?

 

[sjcorne]

However, going back to SACD players: please correct me if I am wrong, but it seems to be a confirmed conclusion of this discussion that some of these players swap rear channels, depending on whether they are playing a 5.0 or 5.1 discs. This is quite surprising.

I can't see how that would be possible. @LuvMyQuad asked how these 4.0 discs were authored, so I answered. What's incredibly odd to me is that the channel layout you reported of the D-V Deodato disc matches my system, but on the AF discs the rears are reversed.

I'm really eager to get to the bottom of this - I hope you're not insulted in any way (I know I probably wouldn't like being told my system might be wired incorrectly) - just trying to help out.

What other AF and D-V titles have you got? Let's compare further.

 

[BeoProf]

Have you ever read about this issue anywhere else?

No. However, it is not easy to establish - that seems to be another conclusion from this thread.
The receiver is not the issue here. I have one SACD player, the comparison is with sjcorne's description.

 

[LuvMyQuad]

However, going back to SACD players: please correct me if I am wrong, but it seems to be a confirmed conclusion of this discussion that some of these players swap rear channels, depending on whether they are playing a 5.0 or 5.1 discs. This is quite surprising.

I don't know that its "confirmed". This would be the first I've heard of this specific abnormality. The sample size of disks you have mentioned is pretty small and as sjcorne noted maybe more info is needed.

Is it possible... yes. But not likely at all.

Still if you find that the player routes 5.1 properly, but cant route 5.0 properly, there really is no other alternative that I can think of other than an issue with the players logic.

 

[LuvMyQuad]

One last question. I'm assuming these are all stamped commercial disks we are talking about. Not DIY burns, not black market stuff correct?

 

[BeoProf]

I can't see how that would be possible. @LuvMyQuad asked how these 4.0 discs were authored, so I answered. What's incredibly odd to me is that the channel layout you reported of the D-V Deodato disc matches my system, but on the AF discs the rears are reversed.

I'm really eager to get to the bottom of this - I hope you're not insulted in any way (I know I probably wouldn't like being told my system might be wired incorrectly) - just trying to help out.

What other AF and D-V titles have you got? Let's compare further.

I am certainly not insulted, mainly because I am confident that my setup is correct
Unless one of us made a significant mistake in identifying the channels on some of the disks mentioned earlier, I think the only reasonable explanation for this behavior could be provided by differences in how different players handle channels.

Here is my whole collection of SACDs - it is not large, I am a bit selective when it comes to content.
I will gladly compare other ones as well and try to get to the bottom of this. If you see a disc we could try let me know. (McCoy Tyner and WR Night Passage are stereo only).

 

[BeoProf]

I don't know that its "confirmed". This would be the first I've heard of this specific abnormality. The sample size of disks you have mentioned is pretty small and as sjcorne noted maybe more info is needed.

Is it possible... yes. But not likely at all.

Still if you find that the player routes 5.1 properly, but cant route 5.0 properly, there really is no other alternative that I can think of other than an issue with the players logic.

I agree, definitely not something I would expect as well.
All my discs are legit.

 

[J. PUPSTER]

I am certainly not insulted, mainly because I am confident that my setup is correct
Unless one of us made a significant mistake in identifying the channels on some of the disks mentioned earlier, I think the only reasonable explanation for this behavior could be provided by differences in how different players handle channels.

Here is my whole collection of SACDs - it is not large, I am a bit selective when it comes to content.
I will gladly compare other ones as well and try to get to the bottom of this. If you see a disc we could try let me know. (McCoy Tyner and WR Night Passage are stereo only).

View attachment 43497

Are you able to rip to flac, add empty channels and play as a 5.1; if your player takes flac or wav etc? Sorry, also I don't remember, did you mention what player you're using?

 

[sjcorne]

If you see a disc we could try let me know.

I've got quite a few of those. Some examples below:

Jeff Beck Group - The Jeff Beck Group
- On "Ice Cream Cakes", Jeff Beck's guitar is in rear right and Max Middleton's piano is in rear left

Jeff Beck Group - Rough and Ready
- On "Situation", the guitar intro is in rear left

Jeff Beck - Wired
- On "Come Dancing", the guitar enters from rear right around 0:10 and the keys enter from rear left at around 0:40

Return To Forever - Musicmagic
- "So Long Mickey Mouse" kicks off with Stanley Clarke's bass in the rear left channel
- In general, bass guitar is in rear left and drums are in rear right

 

[BeoProf]

Are you able to rip to flac, add empty channels and play as a 5.1; if your player takes flac or wav etc? Sorry, also I don't remember, did you mention what player you're using?

Unfortunately not, I imagine you mean a "laser drop", so just recording out of the analog outs? I plan to get some kind of audio processor to do this but that will be in the future.
My player is a Marantz DV-7001, I am very happy with it, it has fantastic sound quality. Looks good too However, it does not accept wav or flac files, it accepts mp3 and wma.

 

[J. PUPSTER]

Unfortunately not, I imagine you mean a "laser drop", so just recording out of the analog outs? I plan to get some kind of audio processor to do this but that will be in the future.
My player is a Marantz DV-7001, I am very happy with it, it has fantastic sound quality. Looks good too However, it does not accept wav or flac files, it accepts mp3 and wma.

Well I mean rip from a player like an inexpensive Sony or an OPPO 103 as in this thread here and then process on Audacity or something and play back through your player; but don't think that's a good option for you.

 

[ssully]

For SACD players, these have test tones/Channel ID tracks

https://www.discogs.com/Various-DMP-Multichannel-Reference-SACD/release/12266121https://www.discogs.com/Various-Stay-In-Tune-With-Pentatone/release/9619391

 

[BeoProf]

I've got quite a few of those. Some examples below:

Jeff Beck Group - The Jeff Beck Group
- On "Ice Cream Cakes", Jeff Beck's guitar is in rear right and Max Middleton's piano is in rear left

Jeff Beck Group - Rough and Ready
- On "Situation", the guitar intro is in rear left

Jeff Beck - Wired
- On "Come Dancing", the guitar enters from rear right around 0:10 and the keys enter from rear left at around 0:40

Return To Forever - Musicmagic
- "So Long Mickey Mouse" kicks off with Stanley Clarke's bass in the rear left channel
- In general, bass guitar is in rear left and drums are in rear right

Just checked all four - I have the exact same results... (On "Situation" I assume you mean the clean guitar in the rear left).

 

[ssully]

With all due respect, you're overthinking it: AF simply made a mistake authoring their disc. I have the SQ LP and a transfer of the Q8 that confirms it. It should be violin on the left, guitar on the right, and clockwise drum roll. I concede that I may have been wrong about the layout of the stereo mix (my apologies), but I know the quad well and swapping the fronts on the AF yields the proper layout.

The layout of the stereo mix of Birds of Fire is what it is on the CD (and SACD stereo) layer of the SACD: violin-keys-guitar. The opposite of the SACD 4.0

BeoProf's theory seems to be that the quad was mixed to give the listener a 'middle of the band' perspective: drums behind you, lead instruments in front. That WOULD require reversing the front line, compared to the stereo, which is from an 'audience' perspective.

Except: the quad mix of the discrete Q8 (according to you; I haven't heard it) has the lead instruments in the same LR order as the stereo.
I've only heard a decode of the SQ LP (not the LP itself)..and the order is as it is on the stereo and Q8 versions.
Which argues that violin-keys-guitar was the quad intention...and the AF quad is an outlier 'remix'.

 

[sjcorne]

Just checked all four - I have the exact same results... (On "Situation" I assume you mean the clean guitar in the rear left).

Fascinating - those discs were all authored as 5.1. Going back to the whole '5.0 vs 5.1' thing, here's what we know:

• On any disc authored in 5.1, we get the same results
• On any disc authored in 5.0 (All AF titles, Bitches Brew), your rear channels are reversed in comparison to mine

I had four SACD players (Denon DBP-2021UDCI, Pioneer DV-45A, Sony DVP CX-985V, and Oppo 981) give me the same channel layout on all the discs we've discussed so far. Could it be possible that your Marantz unit has some sort of software bug when it comes to handling 5.0 material? I can't think of any other conclusion.

 

[BeoProf]

The layout of the stereo mix of Birds of Fire is what it is on the CD (and SACD stereo) layer of the SACD: violin-keys-guitar. The opposite of the SACD 4.0

BeoProf's theory seems to be that the quad was mixed to give the listener a 'middle of the band' perspective: drums behind you, lead instruments in front. That WOULD require reversing the front line, compared to the stereo, which is from an 'audience' perspective.

Except: the quad mix of the discrete Q8 (according to you; I haven't heard it) has the lead instruments in the same LR order as the stereo.
I've only heard a decode of the SQ LP (not the LP itself)..and the order is as it is on the stereo and Q8 versions.
Which argues that violin-keys-guitar was the quad intention...and the AF quad is an outlier 'remix'.

All I am saying is that the AF mix the way I am hearing it makes a lot of sense - much more than the Q8 mix described here (I never heard the Q8), because the latter would require Cobham to turn his back on the listener and the other musicians..
Is there any value in preserving the old quad mix layout from the Q8 if an engineer will see that there is a better way to mix it? I guess it depends on the listener.

 

[ssully]

From the above set I have these discs, which I have also ripped to 88/24 PCM files. If you need info on them let me know:

Mahavishnu
Boulez/Bartok
Jeff Beck - Blow by Blow (phase-corrected)
Miles
Deodato (both, IIRC, but at least the first one)

I have the Floyd too, as a file.

 

[BeoProf]

Fascinating - those discs were all authored as 5.1. Going back to the whole '5.0 vs 5.1' thing, here's what we know:

• On any disc authored in 5.1, we get the same results
• On any disc authored in 5.0 (All AF titles, Bitches Brew), your rear channels are reversed in comparison to mine

I had four SACD players (Denon DBP-2021UDCI, Pioneer DV-45A, Sony DVP CX-985V, and Oppo 981) give me the same channel layout on all those discs. Could it be possible that your Marantz unit has some sort of software bug when it comes to handling 5.0-authored discs? I can't think of any other conclusion.

This is indeed fascinating, I have never seen this kind of issue reported anywhere. I have no idea how to determine what is the precise reason for this, I guess this would require a deep analysis of the software or chips inside the player.
I’ll try to experiment with turning the center and sub on in the sacd player, I wonder if that will make a difference.
Is there any way to read off the disc if it is 5.0 or 5.1 without ripping it in some way?

 

[LuvMyQuad]

Could it be possible that your Marantz unit has some sort of software bug when it comes to handling 5.0 material? I can't think of any other conclusion.

Yes, that's what I was saying. How weird would that be?