Lou Reed - Metal Machine Music dvd-a / bluray

[ArmyOfQuad]

Rather then continue forwarding emails to some, I figure this is a safe place to discuss this.

For those that don't know about this, for over a year now I've been in talks with Tom Sarig, Lou Reed's manager about reissuing the quad mix of Metal Machine Music as a dvd-a. I emailed Lou's page suggesting this in response to his comments about wishing more of us could hear the quad mix in the liner notes of the cd/dvd package that came out of that live performance of Metal Machine Music, and Lou was very interested in this idea, would love to do it, and also heard and loved Cai's dts conversion from the quad vinyl.

For a while now Tom has been in talks with Sony about licensing this.

I emailed him today for an update since I hadn't heard anything in a while. The status is that Sony will only license the album for CD or vinyl reissue, but will not allow digital licensing for this project. And that seems to be where it stands right now. Thank you Sony for once again alienating your customer base.

I responded to Tom suggesting he ask if they would license for SACD, bluray, or dvd without dvd-a. I'll report back when I get a response.

So, that's the latest on this. A shame that Sony insists on trying to put an end to a project that everyone would benefit from. I really don't get these assholes.

 

[ArmyOfQuad]

And I just heard back that he thinks they would agree to those, but he doesn't think they would sell well.

I advised him that while that is true for SACD and bluray, plus duplication prices would be high, that I felt a dvd, so long as it includes dts 24/96 would probably sell about as well as a dvd-a, although it certainly would be a disappointment for many, and suggested we should consider proceeding as a standard dvd, if him and Lou agree.

Anyone have any thoughts about this? Am I wrong, do you think we should look more into SACD or bluray? I would probably need a convincing argument to sell the idea of an SACD or bluray release to Tom.

 

[JonUrban]

It's amazing how these guys are so protective of stuff they don't want to sell themselves.......

 

[Bob Romano]

Not to be defeatist but I dont think a bluray would sell. SACD would be the next best thing because of the hybrid possiblity but it would seem to me that the ROI of a project like that would be nil.

A dedicated DVD-A would be best obviously but a DTS2496 would seem the most logical. The return on a project like that at this point would seem to be a loser as well.

I wonder how many cds they actually sold of the remaster on Buddha when it came out. It reportedly sold 100,000 copies when first released.

Maybe Sony could produce and seel it as a "Special Edition" and limit it to 2500 copies and charge a premium. Or maybe it could be the next "Special Edition" Dark Side of the Moon

In any case I am glad I have Cai's version.

 

[neil wilkes]

Or maybe it could be the next "Special Edition" Dark Side of the Moon

In any case I am glad I have Cai's version.

It may indeed be a project well worth doing.
I have a new transfer of this from Cai, made late last year.
a DVDA would cost - for a run of 1,000 copies - no more than £1.50 per copy at replication including all packaging & delivery. PRS/MCPS would also have to be taken into account.
SACD is a seriously bad idea IMHO because a DTS 9624 stream is simply better in terms of S/N ratios & Dynamic range. The sensible option would be DVDA/V, with MLP. DTS 9624 & possibly even stereo versions just for the stereoheads.

Sony?
Please do not get me started.

 

[quadtrade]

Not that my 2 cents means diddly but......If i was going to try and really get something off the ground from say Sony, the last title to pick is one very few care or would listen to at all. Having had this experience(most of the DTS titles were my choices), i can say that some would sell, some will sit. I am not sure you would even get a major part of this board to even care about Lou's noise album. Or pay for it. If you want Sony to sell material for release in digital media form, then request a bunch of titles with a set price to pay for all titles(per disc). Say 25 discs. Special Markets may be willing to listen, now that Sacd is a sideshow and blueray has no music market. But have a distibution path and marketing ready. Tough project in this market. It may well take a 5000 per title gaurantee for a small effort like this. Sony will want 3-4-5 bucks a DVD. To do this, someone needs a few hundred grand.

 

[ArmyOfQuad]

Well, this wouldn't really be a release from Sony. Lou wants to put it out himself. I'm sure he's well aware it would be a small run. We just need Sony to license the digital rights for this project, which they won't do for dvd-a. I agree that bluray wouldn't sell even though that would be the best, sound quality wise. I never thought that dts 24/96 was considered better than SACD, if that's the case then why all the fuss over importing the genesis box sets? Anyways, either way, dts 24/96 is certainly a decent format, and certainly of a good enough fidelity that it would be worth continuing this project without dvd-a, so we may see something come out mastered from the master tapes yet.

As far as the title choice, well, that wasn't really my choice. I frequently email artists and labels about reissuing quad albums. This is the only time I ever got a response, so that's why MMM is the title that I've been working on getting an official reissue of. If you have any contacts to start working on a similar project for another title, by all means, lets work on something else as well.

 

[JonUrban]

Not that my 2 cents means diddly but......If i was going to try and really get something off the ground from say Sony, the last title to pick is one very few care or would listen to at all. Having had this experience(most of the DTS titles were my choices), i can say that some would sell, some will sit. I am not sure you would even get a major part of this board to even care about Lou's noise album. Or pay for it. If you want Sony to sell material for release in digital media form, then request a bunch of titles with a set price to pay for all titles(per disc). Say 25 discs. Special Markets may be willing to listen, now that Sacd is a sideshow and blueray has no music market. But have a distibution path and marketing ready. Tough project in this market. It may well take a 5000 per title gaurantee for a small effort like this. Sony will want 3-4-5 bucks a DVD. To do this, someone needs a few hundred grand.

Think about how many more cars and homes have DTS capability in 2009 than there were in 1996. You would think that DTS Entertainment would get back on the DTS CD bandwagon and go back to releasing discs. They obviously see (through DTS Entertainment) that the old product is selling for a premium price (especially on their web site). For them to invest a few hundred grand to produce 5000 of each title of surround albums, even just the quad releases from the '70s, would surely return them $$ on their investment. Especially if they sold them directly to the public, thus deleting the middle man. They could set up displays in every car dealership in the USA that has surround equipped vehicles.

Why let an eBay seller make more money than the manufacturer and retailer? Make and sell them yourself, DTS!

 

[Old Quad Guy]

Right, the average listener would bitch about the music on this title, not understanding that this (at least the Stereo version) is indeed a cult classic on the college / underground FM music stations since its first release. I like this title. As one who has experimented with "noise" as supposed music, either you create something really good and interesting - even if people don't understand it at first - or you've created something completely horrible that will never be nothing more than shit. I agree, if one was trying to get interest in Quad, this would be the last title to release. On the other hand it is heartening to know that the artist himself who created the mix wants to release it in some format. DVD-Audio with the DTS / DD streams would be my first choice. I’ve noticed many SACD’s don’t sound as good as DVD-Audio and that a well mastered DTS 24 bit / 96 kHz can sound better than some SACD's out there, although in theory and with discs I own - as I understand it - SACD should sound the best with 24 bit / 192 kHz.

Yes, DTS Entertainment should consider re-releasing the titles already done and some new ones. In fact I’ve just re-bought the “Forever Yours” DTS-CD I used to own because I think it sounds better than the SACD version. Or all we need is a few hounded thousand to get our list of Quadraphonic mixes released. Seriously, if we had a good business plan - VERY VERY important - right contacts and good distribution, I think it could work if advertized right. More and more people are discovering these formats, what they can do – one would think – by the way eBay prices for certain titles have remained high. Yes, eliminate the middle man and sell directly to the public.

 

[JonUrban]

Maybe we could get some "bail-out" money!

 

[ArmyOfQuad]

You know, I've had a recent thought that came to me lately and I already talked about on the google group. I don't have the money, legal knowledge, or anything to make it happen, just the idea.

Music is so readily available for purchase online as mp3s through itunes or amazon, what about if someone starts a digital music store selling 24/96 flac multichannel files? The next step would be creating software that could easily use them to burn your own dvd-a, since making your own dvd-a is not nearly as simple as burning your own CD.

 

[quadtrade]

The Entertainment division never made $ and i do not think that it will return at DTS. Though i have not asked about that in a while. I know all about the funding issues when we were doing the work in the beginning for DTS, and it was a pain to get the investors to agree to the spending in this area, even though it was driving the demand for the codec to be included in receivers. They have what they were after at that time, and not sure why they would care to revive an area that was nothing but expensive. With a difficult market!!! Plus those contracts with Sony and Polygram were for a limited time and # of issues. In addition, DTS did not own the rights to most of the material. Brad , now Patricia, owned the rights for even the titles that said "issued by DTS." They started wanting their name on them, and Brad said fine, as long as $ came to me, as he was doing the licensing. And i think Army might be doing it the way it will happen, artist driven. Who is gonna throw any $ at this time at anything, especially when digital copy issues prevail. And knowing the personalities behind what went on, the hard work in doing even the artwork, it is more than Patricia desires at this time in life. Brad did most of the tweaking of sonics(he is long gone). Anyway, it ain't gonna happen. If it is going to happen, it will have to be done all over again. Or single issue or multiple issues(get hold of Doobies management and see what they own and have rights to use). That is such an issue, it may have been the one that killed this. It is just difficult to get everyone's ok when the bottom line is, may not or probably won't make much $.

 

[Larry Geller]

In fact I’ve just re-bought the “Forever Yours” DTS-CD I used to own because I think it sounds better than the SACD version.

There IS NO SACD of this title, and the DVD-A stomps all over the DTS. It's not even close.

 

[Old Quad Guy]

There IS NO SACD of this title, and the DVD-A stomps all over the DTS. It's not even close.

I was referring to this disc that I saw only an hour ago at the Concord Fry's, which is the same thing as the DVD-Audio, which I also own: http://www.sa-cd.net/showtitle/2448

1. Ain’t That Peculiar
2. It Takes Two (with Kim Weston)
3. Ain’t No Mountain High Enough (with Tammi Terrell)
4. Your Precious Love (with Tammi Terrell)
5. Ain’t Nothing Like The Real Thing (with Tammi Terrell)
6. I Heard It Through The Grapevine
7. What’s Going On
8. Mercy Mercy Me (The Ecology)
9. Trouble Man
10. Let’s Get It On
11. Distant Lover

Which is essentially the same thing more or less - as I understand it - as the “Forever Yours” title except the songs are in a different order:

http://www.musicstack.com/item/86631074/gaye+marvin/forever+yours

1. What's Going On
2. I Heard It Through The Grapevine
3. Let's Get It On
4. Trouble Man
5. It Takes Two
6. Distant Lover
7. Ain't That Peculiar
8. Your Precious Love
9. Ain't Nothing Like The Real Thing
10. Ain't No Mountain High Enough
11. Mercy Mercy Me

I’ll have to A – B – C the titles against running them through a new Digital AMP as opposed to the QRX-6500. What I noticed for my tastes, without checking out the DVD-A yet, was that the SACD sounds a bit harsh (a bad upconvert?) on the new Yamaha AMP compared to the sound of the DTS-CD.

 

[ArmyOfQuad]

The Entertainment division never made $ and i do not think that it will return at DTS. Though i have not asked about that in a while. I know all about the funding issues when we were doing the work in the beginning for DTS, and it was a pain to get the investors to agree to the spending in this area, even though it was driving the demand for the codec to be included in receivers. They have what they were after at that time, and not sure why they would care to revive an area that was nothing but expensive. With a difficult market!!! Plus those contracts with Sony and Polygram were for a limited time and # of issues. In addition, DTS did not own the rights to most of the material. Brad , now Patricia, owned the rights for even the titles that said "issued by DTS." They started wanting their name on them, and Brad said fine, as long as $ came to me, as he was doing the licensing. And i think Army might be doing it the way it will happen, artist driven. Who is gonna throw any $ at this time at anything, especially when digital copy issues prevail. And knowing the personalities behind what went on, the hard work in doing even the artwork, it is more than Patricia desires at this time in life. Brad did most of the tweaking of sonics(he is long gone). Anyway, it ain't gonna happen. If it is going to happen, it will have to be done all over again. Or single issue or multiple issues(get hold of Doobies management and see what they own and have rights to use). That is such an issue, it may have been the one that killed this. It is just difficult to get everyone's ok when the bottom line is, may not or probably won't make much $.

It all comes down to the major problem with the music industry, too many suits, not enough musicians. It no longer has a thing to do with the music to the people running the show.

 

[Larry Geller]

I was referring to this disc that I saw only an hour ago at the Concord Fry's, which is the same thing as the DVD-Audio, which I also own: http://www.sa-cd.net/showtitle/2448

1. Ain’t That Peculiar
2. It Takes Two (with Kim Weston)
3. Ain’t No Mountain High Enough (with Tammi Terrell)
4. Your Precious Love (with Tammi Terrell)
5. Ain’t Nothing Like The Real Thing (with Tammi Terrell)
6. I Heard It Through The Grapevine
7. What’s Going On
8. Mercy Mercy Me (The Ecology)
9. Trouble Man
10. Let’s Get It On
11. Distant Lover

Which is essentially the same thing more or less - as I understand it - as the “Forever Yours” title except the songs are in a different order:

http://www.musicstack.com/item/86631074/gaye+marvin/forever+yours

1. What's Going On
2. I Heard It Through The Grapevine
3. Let's Get It On
4. Trouble Man
5. It Takes Two
6. Distant Lover
7. Ain't That Peculiar
8. Your Precious Love
9. Ain't Nothing Like The Real Thing
10. Ain't No Mountain High Enough
11. Mercy Mercy Me

I’ll have to A – B – C the titles against running them through a new Digital AMP as opposed to the QRX-6500. What I noticed for my tastes, without checking out the DVD-A yet, was that the SACD sounds a bit harsh (a bad upconvert?) on the new Yamaha AMP compared to the sound of the DTS-CD.

I'm an idiot. OF COURSE there must have been an SACD. After all, I DO have the SACD of Let's Get It ON , and THAT is also out on DVD-A. They were from when Universal was still releasing both formats (unfortunately, none of the Eltons came out on DVD-A except GYBR). Sorry.

 

[Old Quad Guy]

I'm an idiot. OF COURSE there must have been an SACD. After all, I DO have the SACD of Let's Get It ON , and THAT is also out on DVD-A. They were from when Universal was still releasing both formats (unfortunately, none of the Eltons came out on DVD-A except GYBR). Sorry.

Larry you are Not an idiot. Just a collector like us all of many discs and its difficult to keep track of each and every disc. Check this out… I bought MFSL Blood, Sweat and Tears 2 SACD from Amazon only to find I already bought the first enition of this title at Fry’s only 6 months before. At Fry’s last year I went title crazy and almost bought The Byrds "Mr Tambourine Man," but decided not to for some reason. I had the disc in hand and was on my way to the cash registers line. But I went back to the discs and grabbed a different SACD. Good thing I didn't buy it, I already had it! Bought at Fry's! @:

 

[ArmyOfQuad]

EXCITING NEWS!!!!! THIS PROJECT IS STILL A REALITY AND GETTING A STEP CLOSER!!!!!

I just got an email from Tom. His technical knowledge on these things is limited, so I'm still unsure of what is happening, and I think he struggles figuring this all out since he isn't exactly sure of how this all works. But, his email to me stated they will be doing a 5.1 CD and vinyl, and he wanted to talk to me soon. Uh...oh....5.1 CD? vinyl?

So I gave him a call, and they put me right through. He was not sure of what was what. I guess his thought was, quad record onto quad CD, and done. So I explained the only real way to do the quad onto 5.1 cd would be onto a dts cd. Which there haven't been commercially produced dts CDs in some time now, this would be highly uncommon. So I explained the way to go is DVD with dts and dolby digital, and if possible dvd-a. And I also explained Sony's hatred of the dvd-a, due to it being the competing format to SACD.

He asked me about SACD and bluray, and I explained while this would be great to do them in these formats, that will be costly. But I did ask him to inquire about the possibility of dvd-a. This will be issued on Lou's own label, so it may be possible to actually get away with dvd-a. There was talk of them converting the master tape to pro-tools and sending that, but now they're working on acquiring the master tape itself to be sent to Bob Ludwig for remastering. So, once it's remastered, I guess next will be authoring a disc, which will be either dvd-v or dvd-a/v, depending on what's allowed. And I've recommended Neil for the job, of course. I should be hearing back soon and hopefully we'll all have a better idea of what exactly is being made, and I will be sure to give Neil's contact information to Tom to let him follow up to arrange the authoring.

And then there's the vinyl. I asked him what the deal is with that, and explained that I'm pretty sure the equipment to actually cut a quad vinyl issue today no longer exists. But I did mention that he may want to ask Bob Ludwig about that, he may know more about what is or isn't possible, since I'm sure he's going to be talking to him anyways since he's doing the remastering. I'm guessing that most likely there will be a stereo vinyl reissue, which wouldn't be too surprising since vinyl is making a comeback these days. I'm sure a special edition vinyl reissue of Metal Machine Music would sell at least some copies, even if it is only stereo.

Exciting stuff. It's great that we've managed to get Lou's interest, and have gotten him this interested in reissuing the quad mix that he's kept at it through all the roadblocks along the way. I can't help but wonder how many artists have been interested in similar projects, only to lose sight of it while being busy with other projects and tours, only to forget about it and drop it after dealing with the suits trying to block it and make it as difficult as possible. No wonder we hardly get any surround reissues. But...at least we've proved it possible. Now if only we could get the interest of others.

 

[ArmyOfQuad]

It had been a while since I have heard any news on this from Tom, so I dropped him a line today asking for an update. Here is his reply

I am happy to report that we are putting it out, we just licensed it back from Lou's label. Remastering it now, we are doing 3 formats--a DVD (audio), a Blue Ray DVD and a Vinyl double album. This has been a very long process.

Woah, it's become a bluray. Now I have to get a player. I do know that Tom's technical knowledge on these formats is sometimes limited, so I'm not sure if the DVD (audio) is actually a dvd-a, or just a dvd with audio. But even if it's just a dvd, we have the bluray to rely on for uncompressed 4.0 audio. I'm guessing the vinyl is going to be stereo since I don't think the equipment to do quad vinyl is still around. With vinyl being popular these days, it makes sense to do a vinyl reissue along with this. He hasn't given any release date info yet, but I did reply asking if he has a ballpark for this. I'll keep you all posted.

 

[JonUrban]

Nice work, Jonathan. You should get a shout out if this thing really gets out to us!