Obscure: For those with 78s

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atrocity

2K Club - QQ Super Nova
Since 2002/2003
Joined
Jun 14, 2002
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2,226
Location
Sacramento, California
I have a few hundred or so 78s and intermittently go through periods of digitizing them, with the eventual goal being to have the whole collection done.

Some of them are old enough to run at non-standard speeds, so a long time ago I bought a turntable that can do 71.29, 76.59, 78.26, 80, etc. It works OK, but it doesn't have quartz-lock and, frankly, just isn't that stable speed-wise. It doesn't wander enough to be audible, but it's one of those things that annoys me because it just shouldn't happen at all.

So a few weeks back I got the bright idea to see if anyone ever made a 78 stylus for a P-Mount cartridge, thinking I'd use my Technics SL-Q6 to digitize at 45, then use SoX to adjust the speed to any arbitrary value and additional software to deal with the equalization. Turns out there's a $47 P-Mount cartridge out there with a 78 stylus, so I went ahead and ordered one.

Well...two issues: I think the 1.25 gram default P-Mount tracking force just isn't enough for some 78s. The first one I tried was a Harry James and it sounded flat-out awful. Obviously, there's a lot of trumpet, but it just kept "tearing" (I hope I'm using the correct term). That is, some of the sound was just missing. On top of that, it turns out that linear trackers generally auto-return based solely on where the arm is located without taking into account velocity. Or, in English, if you're trying to play a 10" 78 with a small label, you won't be able to play the last few seconds of the record because the arm will lift off too soon. Those old records track farther inward than modern ones do and the linear tracker just won't work.

On the other hand, I got a pretty solid capture of a 1906 12" Victor with a big label. Played it at 45, digitally sped it up to 71.29 and it worked pretty well.
 
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I prefer to use an S shaped arm for my "78"s. I find it more stable and the swappable headshells are ideal. If you set up a stereo LP headshell and a 78 headshell with the same cartridge and use weight plates to match the desired tracking, you can set up the LP shell to the appropriate weight and add to the 78 shell to get what you need without playing with adjustments. Antiskate has little effect on 78s so I just don't bother. The rare exception is Pathe discs where I prefer to not quite ride the bottom of the U shaped groove. Linear trackers are less accurate for 78s as they were typically cut on radial cutters. My cartridge of choice is the Stanton 500. OEM styli are old and more expensive but generics can be used at better cost. Some have had issues with generics but I have had good luck so far. As to software, Diamond Cut 8 had speed and Phono EQ (remove RIAA and add others) adjustments more than a decade ago and can be found if you look in the usual places. I got it long ago bundled with a CD writer. I have found that anything less than 3 grams tracking on 78s is usually not effective. The only 78s that I had to use extreme measures on were either damaged/broken or Berliner discs that I had to use a General Electric RPX cartridge at 10 grams to counter the oval groove cut and the spot where the groove stopped matching up. Playing that disc on a gramophone would have negated the errors in cutting but modern gear went postal!
 
I've used a "TimeStep" modified Technics SL-1200 turntable for my 78's for several years. Direct-drive, high torque, quartz locked stability, continuously variable from 71-91rpm (with working strobe indication at any speed!). Highly recommended - TimeStep
 
Wow....78s. I've sold off my windups and pre-50's material, expanded my RocknRoll collection of them and kept some Bird and Diz, etc....even Harry James, always liked his tone. Not quite audiophile, but I have an AT- LP120 devoted to them with a Shure M78S cartridge, which is nominally 2.5mil, perhaps better suited to late era 78s. I probably should play with tracking but I run it light at 2 grams or so without issues to my ears.
 
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Antiskate has little effect on 78s so I just don't bother.

But if you get it wrong and play a lot of records, you'll wind up with a bent cantilever. Been there.

The rare exception is Pathe discs where I prefer to not quite ride the bottom of the U shaped groove.

I have exactly one Pathe. It sounds so awful either way that I'm not sure if it's vertically or horizontally modulated. I assume I just don't have the right stylus.

Linear trackers are less accurate for 78s as they were typically cut on radial cutters.

That had actually crossed my mind! I started playing with the linear deck more for the quartz lock than anything else.

My cartridge of choice is the Stanton 500.

Same here. I should probably have multiple styli, but...

As to software, Diamond Cut 8 had speed and Phono EQ (remove RIAA and add others) adjustments more than a decade ago and can be found if you look in the usual places.

I've been using the plainly-named Equalizer from the same guy who wrote ClickRepair. It does what you say and also has an option to adjust for speed differences. That is, you can start from vanilla RIAA or RIAA 33>78 or RIAA 45>78 (though, sadly, not 33>16). I also have an old Esoteric Sound Re-Equalizer, but frankly I prefer the software these days. The hardware box was a good idea at the time, but you're limited to its presets and there's no way to override the fact that it sums to mono. I'd rather capture in stereo because even though it obviously is meaningless from a music standpoint, it seems to give ClickRepair more to work with.

Equalizer also has the advantage of being 100% free.

I have found that anything less than 3 grams tracking on 78s is usually not effective. The only 78s that I had to use extreme measures on were either damaged/broken or Berliner discs that I had to use a General Electric RPX cartridge at 10 grams to counter the oval groove cut and the spot where the groove stopped matching up. Playing that disc on a gramophone would have negated the errors in cutting but modern gear went postal!

You've definitely put more thought and work into this than I have. I suspect you're right about the VTF, though I think later today I'll masochistically try the P-Mount cartridge on another linear deck just to see what happens. What I probably really need to do is get one of those quartz-locked AT turntables and set that up for 78. Though I've always wondered: Do modern turntable manufacturers understand that "78" should really be 78.26?
 
Turntable manufacturers don't really have a choice on using 78.26 as it is tied to the frequency of the power lines at 60 cycles. I forget the exact number in 50 cycle regions, kinda like 77.92 rpm. Not really enough for most of us to catch. On classical and opera though it can be an issue. In that case, the use of a tuner and a variable pitch control is your only answer. The same goes for discs cut with mechanical turntables and clockwork motors. Kinda hard to get a turntable nowadays with the pine cones like on a cuckoo clock. As to antiskate, how did you bend a cantilever? I've only ever done that with accidents or trying to play a damaged disc, i.e. broken. For the Pathe disc, if it was played on a lateral gramophone, it probably has a sharp bottom etching out the original sound. If not, A worn 78 tip may help as the groove can be up to 8 mil I have heard. This is why I play them with a pulling antiskate towards the rest or spindle. I had great effect using a Dual turntable and tilting it drastically. I assume that you played yours with the cart wired for vertical playback? For 78s I have a genuine Stanton 2.7 mil tip and a generic 3 mil tip. They have their uses. Other sizes are just too rich for me. I assume that when you use the EQ that you remove the RIAA after slow speed recording and reintroduce it after pitch correction. That was easy in DC8. It also had built in vertical strapping so the cart could remain as is and had back masking as well. That was good for wreaking havoc on Revolution #9 #9 #9...
 
As to antiskate, how did you bend a cantilever?

Stupidity and/or ignorance. I had a gauge that let me set an accurate VTF, but then I just ignorantly trusted the markings on the anti-skate knob. I didn't know at the time about the blank record trick where you set the anti-skate by setting the arm down on a blank record (e.g., an old one-sided 78) and adjust the anti-skate until the arm stays put. Though the deck in question is cheap and I found that it doesn't even work the same
across an entire side. I wound up setting it so that it would stay in the middle of a record.

What's even worse is that this isn't the first time I'd done that. I had the same thing happen to a Shure LP stylus way back in the 1970s. In that case, I'm sure it was because the anti-skate was set too high because [really embarrassing story highlighting my illiteracy and ignorance].

What seems to happen is that after playing many, many, many records the cumulative force of having the thing set wrong is actually enough to bend the metal, as insane as that sounds. I never noticed any problems when I had the 78 table set up wrong, but the 1970s one suffered from having lots of records "stick". If I'd had a functioning brain, I'd have been able to figure out why, but...

One of the many things I love about the Sony PS-X75 is that there's a single knob that handles both VTF and anti-skate. Rather than try to manually balance the thing by eye, I turn the knob to the VTF I want, then use a digital scale to set the counterweight to match. Seems to work really well.

I assume that when you use the EQ that you remove the RIAA after slow speed recording and reintroduce it after pitch correction.

I correct the speed, then run it through Equalizer. If I understand the manual correctly (and now you're making me think I need to take a second look!), that's how it's designed to work. The input dropdown lets you select the attributes of the current file and the output dropdown lets you select what you want the final version to use.
 
If you change the speed first before the EQ, you are corecting it wrong. That way you are correcting the wrong EQ and all after will sound off. The phono preamp is RIAA at the speed you playback at. Remove the RIAA EQ first, speed correct second then recorrect the EQ on correct speed playback. Also, try to do click repair at corrected speed to avoid dirgital artifacts. Try one that you already have digitised with your method and redigitise it from scratch and do it my way to see how you find the sound comparison.
 
I love it when a technical discussion like this breaks out on QQ, even when most of it is way over my head. I'm interested in vintage calypso music from the 1930s and 40s, and while most of the more interesting sides have been digitized and reissued, there's still some obscure stuff out there that I've collected over the years. The really important things I send off to professionals--guys who restore 78s and cylinders for a living and get hired by the big sound archives. But other things I've recorded in to the computer on my own, using an old Elac Miracord 10 kitted out with a Grado 78 cart. I know I don't really know what I'm doing, but at least I can listen to the music without degrading the original any further. I'd love to be able to do it right, though.

I'm assuming you guys know all about "The Great 78 Project" at archive.org?
 
I love Calypso music as well but am more familiar with the records from the 1950's like Hubert Smith. The ELAC Miracord is a nice table and the Grado cart is very nice sounding. I just wince every time I have to change styli. The good thing about Grado is there is no authorised generic styli of poor quality. The most important thing after turntable and styli is cleaning the discs to get the best transfer. The computer stuff sounds high tech but the basics for preservation are really simple. It is when you want to add effects, edit or do noise removal that it gets difficult. Just recording them and doing the right EQ is easy and if the records are well cared for and clean, more may not be necessary for the average listener. I've have 1926 electrical 78s play almost like 1950's LPs and some acoustic 78s that were almost whisper quiet. When possible it is good to have access to multiple copies for comparison. I have come across old store stock a few times in my life.
 
If you change the speed first before the EQ, you are corecting it wrong. That way you are correcting the wrong EQ and all after will sound off. The phono preamp is RIAA at the speed you playback at. Remove the RIAA EQ first, speed correct second then recorrect the EQ on correct speed playback. Also, try to do click repair at corrected speed to avoid dirgital artifacts. Try one that you already have digitised with your method and redigitise it from scratch and do it my way to see how you find the sound comparison.

That's going to depend on how the [re-]Equalizer is set up, though. Looking at page 9 of the Equalizer manual, he really does seem to be clear that the speed correction should be done before the EQ, then the proper settings selected on the source side.

Just to be even more contrary, somewhere in the last week I'm sure I read the author's assertion that noise reduction should be done ahead of speed correction, though that doesn't seem to appear in the manual and I'm now questioning my sanity and sobriety.

As for an A/B, the problem I would have is that while I can often hear the differences between two sources, I can't necessarily decide which is better.
 
Several years ago I built a preamp specifically for playing 78's. For sentimental reasons I still have my Mother's old record collection which includes a lot of 78's. I haven't listened to any of them since the early 70's but recall a couple of titles that I really did enjoy. When I get around to it I want to digitise all of these. I'll be interested to see what kind of fidelity I can coax out of them. I have a Lenco L75 Turntable that I got from Value Village years ago that has the 78 speed and the speed is even adjustable. I have a Pickering cartridge with a 78 stylus already, but recently found a deal on a Grado 78C as well.
 
Several years ago I built a preamp specifically for playing 78's. For sentimental reasons I still have my Mother's old record collection which includes a lot of 78's. I haven't listened to any of them since the early 70's but recall a couple of titles that I really did enjoy. When I get around to it I want to digitise all of these. I'll be interested to see what kind of fidelity I can coax out of them. I have a Lenco L75 Turntable that I got from Value Village years ago that has the 78 speed and the speed is even adjustable. I have a Pickering cartridge with a 78 stylus already, but recently found a deal on a Grado 78C as well.

In addition to my ELAC, I recently picked up a cast-off Bogen (essentially a Lenco L70 under a different name). The consensus seems to be that turntables like these with "high-mass" tonearms want heavier-tracking cartridges like Stantons, Shures, and Pickerings. Generally speaking that would rule out Grado--although I don't know if that rule of thumb also applies to the Grado 78 or only the stereo cartridges.
 
That's going to depend on how the [re-]Equalizer is set up, though. Looking at page 9 of the Equalizer manual, he really does seem to be clear that the speed correction should be done before the EQ, then the proper settings selected on the source side.

Just to be even more contrary, somewhere in the last week I'm sure I read the author's assertion that noise reduction should be done ahead of speed correction, though that doesn't seem to appear in the manual and I'm now questioning my sanity and sobriety.

As for an A/B, the problem I would have is that while I can often hear the differences between two sources, I can't necessarily decide which is better.
I read from page 9. It seems they have already built in the changes to offset for speed. Personally I feel it is better to do it before and not have to compensate for speed/pitch changes. That may be because I am used to it. Sometimes I feel "quick short cuts" can take away from the quality. I will read the whole manual later but have to go for an appointment soon. As to noise reduction, if you do it as the 45 speed, you are possibly over correcting, but I can not be sure. I prefer to hear exactly what I am taking out at the correct pitch. Sometimes I find taking stuff out at uncorrected speed can cause artifacts in the corrected speed playback. You may have different results. As to A/Bing the two files, if the difference is minor, I am the same way. If the result is something excessive like boomy, muddy bass plus extended rumble or a drastic harshness to treble and voices or excessive needle scratch, it can be obvious.
 
Several years ago I built a preamp specifically for playing 78's. For sentimental reasons I still have my Mother's old record collection which includes a lot of 78's. I haven't listened to any of them since the early 70's but recall a couple of titles that I really did enjoy. When I get around to it I want to digitise all of these. I'll be interested to see what kind of fidelity I can coax out of them. I have a Lenco L75 Turntable that I got from Value Village years ago that has the 78 speed and the speed is even adjustable. I have a Pickering cartridge with a 78 stylus already, but recently found a deal on a Grado 78C as well.
The Lencos are fine tables if they are working properly. They had arms that had rubber V blocks that can deteriorate causing mistracking. The idlers can go hard too and slip. Both can be remedied easily by web surfing for parts. The big dofference with the Grado over Pickering is I believe it has a 2.5 mil tip which is ideal for 1950's records and transcriptons. The Pickering if it still has the Pickering tip is 2.7 mil. That is a nice compromise between 1950's records and earlier electrics which are best suited with a 3 mil tip. Watch the Grado for hum too. They seem to dislike some tables as they are not shielded. Also, search the web for "strobe.exe" or maybe it is on Vinyl Engine under the Tools heading. You can print out custom strobe discs in the speed of your choice. Lencos had the problem of locating the right speed. This is a DOS program and should still work in a DOS Box on a Windoze machine.
 
In addition to my ELAC, I recently picked up a cast-off Bogen (essentially a Lenco L70 under a different name). The consensus seems to be that turntables like these with "high-mass" tonearms want heavier-tracking cartridges like Stantons, Shures, and Pickerings. Generally speaking that would rule out Grado--although I don't know if that rule of thumb also applies to the Grado 78 or only the stereo cartridges.
The Grado may work depending on the arm. Is it one of the older ones with a bakelite headshell with a hole on top for a General Electric cartridge with knob on top? If it is a later one with a metal headshell, you should be okay with a Grado. Just watch out for stray hum as they aren't shielded. I have used lighter Shures and ADC carts in the past to good effect. I just wouldn't go for carts made for low mass arms like Ortofon OM series or Shure V15 series.
 
The Lencos are fine tables if they are working properly. They had arms that had rubber V blocks that can deteriorate causing mistracking. The idlers can go hard too and slip. Both can be remedied easily by web surfing for parts. The big dofference with the Grado over Pickering is I believe it has a 2.5 mil tip which is ideal for 1950's records and transcriptons. The Pickering if it still has the Pickering tip is 2.7 mil. That is a nice compromise between 1950's records and earlier electrics which are best suited with a 3 mil tip. Watch the Grado for hum too. They seem to dislike some tables as they are not shielded. Also, search the web for "strobe.exe" or maybe it is on Vinyl Engine under the Tools heading. You can print out custom strobe discs in the speed of your choice. Lencos had the problem of locating the right speed. This is a DOS program and should still work in a DOS Box on a Windoze machine.

Also a great community discussion board for Lenco owners here:

https://www.lencoheaven.net/
 
The Grado may work depending on the arm. Is it one of the older ones with a bakelite headshell with a hole on top for a General Electric cartridge with knob on top? If it is a later one with a metal headshell, you should be okay with a Grado. Just watch out for stray hum as they aren't shielded. I have used lighter Shures and ADC carts in the past to good effect. I just wouldn't go for carts made for low mass arms like Ortofon OM series or Shure V15 series.

Oh--that's good to know. My Bogen has a sort of rectangular brushed aluminum headshell. My ELAC, meanwhile, has a bakelite shell (I was lucky; it came with two, so I can easily switch from stereo to 78 carts), but no hole on top....
 
You would recognise the older arm right away. It has a black headshell, grey painted curved arm and is very heavy. Yours is the straight one with shiny metal wand and a pigtail for antiskate if I remember right. That one should be good for medium to high mass cartridges or anything tracking over 1.5 grams. The Grado should be good to 3 grams, more in a pinch but only occasionally.
 
You would recognise the older arm right away. It has a black headshell, grey painted curved arm and is very heavy. Yours is the straight one with shiny metal wand and a pigtail for antiskate if I remember right. That one should be good for medium to high mass cartridges or anything tracking over 1.5 grams. The Grado should be good to 3 grams, more in a pinch but only occasionally.

I appreciate all the wisdom you're dropping here, @Circular Vibes . At the risk of hijacking this thread, I'm including a couple of photos, since neither the arm on my Bogen nor my ELAC quite fits your description. (The ELAC has a black curved headshell, but a straight chromed tonearm, with a black sleeve that slides along the rear of the arm for adjusting tracking weight. No antiskate.)

IMG_20191115_095732075.jpg
IMG_20191115_100335348.jpg
 
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