Reference Recordings of Saint-Saëns Symphony No.3 "Organ"

[Lord British]

I'm writing to pick the forums' brains about a specific recording of Camille Saint-Saens Symphony NO. 3, the "Organ" symphony released by Reference Recordings in 2015 (Catalog #RR-136). Throughout the recording, there is a low frequency rumble around 20hz and maybe lower that pervades the entire disc. Even on the tracks that don't feature the organ, the rumble is there when the volume is turned up. When I wrote to Reference regarding this, this was their reply:

Dear Mr. Kalinowski,

We are sorry you are not happy with your Saint-Saens Organ Symphony SACD. It is not actually defective, and if I sent you another disc it would be the same.

We have sold large numbers of this title, usually all is well but very rarely someone has this problem. The low bass on this recording can cause resonating in some audio systems. Usually the problem is that there is a subwoofer in the system that is turned up too high. When it was mastered, the engineer did not roll it off at the very low frequencies, but let it go all the way down to the infrasonic bass frequencies that his special handbuilt microphones captured, as low as 10 Hz. Most commercial recordings roll off the very low bass for this reason. It did not show up in our test playback systems as a problem. But, some systems can't handle it and will rumble or buzz especially when played loud. The sound may be perceived as a little higher frequency, 20 Hz or so.

If you can't make it work, we will be happy to refund your payment.

Please let us know what you would like.

Sorry for the problem,
Marcia Martin
Reference Recordings

My system sounds great with all other recordings, so I don't think its system specific. You can't perceive it at normal volumes, but my question is, why would they not filter or get rid of it somehow? It's a great recording, and I want to play it LOUD, but when I turn up the volume it almost makes it unlistenable, as there is also a slight physical aspect of being able to "feel" the rumble while I'm listening rather than hearing it. I do have 2 SVS subs in my system that really delve deep.

 

[ubertrout]

I'm sorry, but what a great response from RR - they understood your question and gave a precise response. Perhaps you can have your system rolloff the bass below a certain db?

I love this recording too, although if I played it at anything close to the volumes needed to hear what you're experiencing my generally understanding other half would be likely to just start glaring.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

Yeah, I hear it but not at a level that bothers me.

 

[bluelightning]

I am not sure the response makes sense to me, but need to understand more. Here are some thoughts.

1. First off there should be low frequencies only in the second and fourth movements.
2. How loud is it that you have to play it to hear this ? From what I recollect this ( as such most decent SS#3 recordings need to be cranked high) needs to be played at a high level to get realistic volume levels.
3. This could simply be the 1/f noise from the microphone or recording chain. While I enjoy many of their recordings (bass head) I have long felt that they provide an unnatural boost to the lower frequencies either by tweaking either the microphone frequency response curve or digitally. Either of these could raise the noise levels in the lower frequencies and cause them to be audible.
4. SVS subs are some of the best out there and are easily flat to well below 20 Hz, in room probably more likely 15 or lower. Dual subs at that, especially if cranked high would be sensitive enough to reproduce this microphone noise easily.
5. This could be the organ blower noise ( again possibly boosted through the microphone response)

I will try to play this recording and see if I hear it, though I only have the CD version and not the SACD. I have my subwoofer set 6 -10 dB higher than the rest of range.

 

[MCDave]

I definitely hear it too.

 

[hobie1dog]

Please send me your defective CD if it bothers you too much

Very likely could be a blower unit.I worked in the pipe organ building business for 7 years, it happens with big-ass organs.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

I'm writing to pick the forums' brains about a specific recording of Camille Saint-Saens Symphony NO. 3, the "Organ" symphony released by Reference Recordings in 2015 (Catalog #RR-136). Throughout the recording, there is a low frequency rumble around 20hz and maybe lower that pervades the entire disc. Even on the tracks that don't feature the organ, the rumble is there when the volume is turned up.

Are you listening to the stereo or the multichannel tracks?

 

[Lord British]

I am not sure the response makes sense to me, but need to understand more. Here are some thoughts.

1. First off there should be low frequencies only in the second and fourth movements.
2. How loud is it that you have to play it to hear this ? From what I recollect this ( as such most decent SS#3 recordings need to be cranked high) needs to be played at a high level to get realistic volume levels.
3. This could simply be the 1/f noise from the microphone or recording chain. While I enjoy many of their recordings (bass head) I have long felt that they provide an unnatural boost to the lower frequencies either by tweaking either the microphone frequency response curve or digitally. Either of these could raise the noise levels in the lower frequencies and cause them to be audible.
4. SVS subs are some of the best out there and are easily flat to well below 20 Hz, in room probably more likely 15 or lower. Dual subs at that, especially if cranked high would be sensitive enough to reproduce this microphone noise easily.
5. This could be the organ blower noise ( again possibly boosted through the microphone response)

I will try to play this recording and see if I hear it, though I only have the CD version and not the SACD. I have my subwoofer set 6 -10 dB higher than the rest of range.

That's the odd thing, Blue, is that the low frequency exists throughout the entire recording, even on tracks 1 and 2 where the organ is non existent. Perhaps it IS blower noise? I have a Pioneer Elite receiver and listening to it at "normal" volume levels doesnt bother me but if I turn turn the volume up I can start to hear it at around -12db

 

[Lord British]

Are you listening to the stereo or the multichannel tracks?

I had the same thought that it might just be in the .1 LFE of the MCH but it's there in both stereo and MCH. I'll have to double check but I also think it's in the CD layer version, as well.

 

[Philip Spinner]

My aunt played a pipe organ in our church for many years. During the sermon she would turn off the blower so that everyone could hear the words properly. It was pretty loud. The floor actually vibrated up where it was located.

 

[bluelightning]

That's the odd thing, Blue, is that the low frequency exists throughout the entire recording, even on tracks 1 and 2 where the organ is non existent. Perhaps it IS blower noise? I have a Pioneer Elite receiver and listening to it at "normal" volume levels doesnt bother me but if I turn turn the volume up I can start to hear it at around -12db

I had a chance to listen to the disc, albeit the HDCD only since that is what I have, although I doubt it will make any difference. I can definitely feel and hear the low frequency noise/rumble from the subwoofer. It is pretty noticeable at levels 6-10 dB louder than I would listen ( which is pretty loud as is). Ironically, this noise is slightly more audible on the beginning "filler" tracks 1 & 2. This noise is mostly confined to lower frequencies in the subwoofer. This ( and the fact that tracks 1 & 2 should have no organ) leads me to believe that this is not blower noise. This is also most definitely NOT resonance, for one it is not a fixed tone or two.

My strong hunch is that this is simply the microphone noise floor ( with perhaps ambient noise) equalized/(gain cranked up) to boost the lower frequencies, thus amplifying the noise floor in the lowest octave.

 

[bluelightning]

Here are a few FFT plots from the first two tracks done in areas of relatively low signal. All have this characteristic peak at 6-7 Hz & 30, 40 Hz and significant energy from @5-100 Hz. Your subwoofers were right!! This is unlikely to be blower noise and is some characteristic of their recording chain, most likely amplified microphone response.

Another stark example from the end of track 5 , movement #3 of SS#3. This chart clearly shows you the separation of energy from this LF noise and whatever instrument(s) was playing at the time(6:15 to 6:25)

I am curious to look at some other RR recordings and see if there is some pattern to this in recent recordings.

 

[hobie1dog]

Bluelightning- what measurement program are you using to get your graphs?

 

[bluelightning]

Bluelightning- what measurement program are you using to get your graphs?

Plain old Audacity