How do you play Quad mixes in a 7.1.4 system?

[AYanguas]

How do you play Quad mixes that usually have too much discrete content in the two rear channels, if you have a 7.1.4 home cinema rig?

I have too much high volume Quad rear content, because my Surrounds are at 90º side location.

Enabling upmixers to reach all 7.1.4, was not convincing always. I know that is not the way the original 4.0 mix was intended.

Now, using the Denon 8500 custom amp config, when I play a 4.0 mix I assign the Surround speakers to ‘none’ and Surround Back speakers to Surround channels. Although not being perfect, I now have a more ‘square’ speakers locations. I am nearer to the ‘back rear Quads’ than to the Fronts, but they are in a more or less ‘square’ location.

I have to test more, but I think I like much more the Quad mixes this way and hear more compensated the extremely high discrete content in the rears that used to be mixed for Quad before.

How do you listen Quad mixes when you have a 5.1/7.1 floor speakers?

 

[HomerJAU]

I’ve got my floor standing full range sides slightly behind the listening position so it’s kind of rears for Quad. My rears are at the back of the room (wall mounted to clear one door, both at same level but higher than my floor standers)

If you have your quads as FLAC files you could permanently add two side silent channels to push the quad rears to your 7.1 rears? Then you wouldn’t have to reconfigure your system every time you switch between 5.1 and Quad.

 

[AYanguas]

I take note of that handling of the FLACs. But I mostly have under DVD-A or Bluray and I have already practice on reconfiguring the system. I wonder if it would be worth to make a special configuration for Quads, with it's own Audyssey run and saved as an alternate configuration in pendrive.

 

[HomerJAU]

If you have a Windows PC I could add a new ‘Remix Quad to 7.1’ (add silent C, LFE, SR, SL channels) to Music Media Helper as that will convert entire album folders to 7.1 in batch mode. That will be much faster.

 

[jeromejohn]

Roon takes care of this for me. I love it.

 

[AYanguas]

If you have a Windows PC I could add a new ‘Remix Quad to 7.1’ (add silent C, LFE, SR, SL channels) to Music Media Helper as that will convert entire album folders to 7.1 in batch mode. That will be much faster.

OK, I've started to play with Music Media Helper. Lot of options. I like it.

Yes I would need the 'Remix Quad to 7.1' to get a 8 Channel file with SR,SL moved to SBR, SBL

Is it something additional to install? Or can I configure it by myself within MMH?

 

[IMachine]

I use the „direct mode“ on my Denon to play the mixes as intended. Then only the speakers are involved that should be.

 

[AYanguas]

I use the „direct mode“ on my Denon to play the mixes as intended. Then only the speakers are involved that should be.

Yes, I can also use the "Multi Ch In" mode that also plays the channels mapped just as they are, with the addition of the SUB (for bass management) and Audissey EQ filters.

What is the intended play for a QUAD mix? I think you have to have 4 speakers in a 'square' locations and the MLP beeing at the center of the Square.

Rear Quad Channels are mapped as 'Surround Left' and 'Surround Right'.

In a tipical 7.1 speaker layout, as in my case, the Surround Back Speakers are closer to that ideal QUAD positions than the Surround speakers.

What I want is to play the rear QUAD channels as 'Surround Back Left' and 'Surround Back Right', because after some QUAD albums listened in that way I appreciate much more what I suppose that was the QUAD mixer intention. They really sound much better to me in that way.

 

[IMachine]

Ah ok. I have a 5.1.2 setup so I use my rear channels.

 

[northernsoul]

Plays as normal; Insert disc or flac file via USB and play on multi channel.

 

[HomerJAU]

Plays as normal; Insert disc or flac file via USB and play on multi channel.

Quad plays back in front and sides with a 7.1 system. AYanguas wants front and rear.

 

[HomerJAU]

Yes I would need the 'Remix Quad to 7.1' to get a 8 Channel file with SR,SL moved to SBR, SBL

Is it something additional to install? Or can I configure it by myself within MMH?

I will add the new Remix option for you later today and upload an update.

You could probably use the ‘User Defined’ remix tool also. Remove the last 4 inputs. Then map the FL FR inputs to FL FR outputs and 3rd and 4th input channels to the 7th and 8th output channels. Load the quad folder files, then Remix with option not to overwrite. See if that works.

 

[HomerJAU]

Another option (which probably won’t work, but it might on your 8500) is to change the channel layout branding in your quad files.

In MMH the only way to do that (currently) is to Split the quad files to 4 x mono, then Merge the 4 x mono files back to a new quad MCH file using the LF LR BL BR mapping (dropdown box). MMH will let you do each step (Split and Merging) in a batch (all selected files in one batch). So you can do an entire album pretty quickly.

This may not work as most systems I’ve seen seem to ignore channel mapping and just play channels based on SMPTE channel order. I.e. for 5.1, first channel is LF, 2nd is RF, 3rd is C etc.

 

[AYanguas]

Another option (which probably won’t work, but it might on your 8500) is to change the channel layout branding in your quad files.

In MMH the only way to do that (currently) is to Split the quad files to 4 x mono, then Merge the 4 x mono files back to a new quad MCH file using the LF LR BL BR mapping (dropdown box). MMH will let you do each step (Split and Merging) in a batch (all selected files in one batch). So you can do an entire album pretty quickly.

This may not work as most systems I’ve seen seem to ignore channel mapping and just play channels based on SMPTE channel order. I.e. for 5.1, first channel is LF, 2nd is RF, 3rd is C etc.

I did that but it didn't worked. The 8500 keep mapping the 4 channels as always: Lb, Rb are output as Ls, Rs

Then I tried another thing, this time successfully. As it seems I need a 8 channel files, I first add empty C,LFE channels to have silent channels to add. Did a split to mono files and renamed the mono files channels from S to B, adding copy of the silent files to the Surround channels. I merge the 8 files to a new MCH 8 channels.

It worked OK (playing on Denon 8500) but from the DUNE players. The Oppo 203 player refused to play the MCH 8 channels FLAC.

If you can add the 'Remix Quad to 7.1' maping the backs it would be a more direct option for me. MMH has options to 'downmix' to lesser channels but having a 7.1 system it would be good to have options to 'upmix' to 8 channels.

 

[HomerJAU]

I just completed the coding. I'll PM you a link to MMH 4.0.8 with these changes.

New Feature:
Remix Channel Layout Tool: Added new option to 'Move Quad rear channels to rear of 7.1 file'

Changes:
Remix Channel Layout Tool: User Defined Remix - increased max number of Channels to 8 (to support 7.1)

Could you please kindly test and provide feedback? If all looks good I'll publish the update.

No rush, when you get a chance to test.

 

[Hamilton59]

I do have to make a change to my system whenever I want to play a 4.0 quad blu-ray vs ATMOS or 5.1 files on my 7.2.4 system. My Marantz wants to play the DTS MA disc by up-mixing 4.0 to use all of my speakers. I have 4 large floor standing speakers that I want to use for quad. I have to go into my OPPO settings and change the HDMI audio output to LPCM from Bitstream or Auto so that the Marantz will play back 4.2 in my case. I want to use Audyssey MultiEQ and my subs with the 4 main channels Direct mode will play back as 4.0 but without EQ and balance etc and I don’t sit in the exact center of my 4 mains. On 5.1 disc it really depends on the mix. If I want more from the rear channels, I’ll often leave the OPPO in bitstream and let the Marantz upmix to use the extra speakers. (And if it still needs more, I’ll turn on Audyssey Dynamic EQ which seems to boost the rears even more). if I want to play back a 5.1 disc as mixed, I have to send LPCM to the Marantz. My last Marantz had a multi channel sound mode, if I recall correctly, but this amp with ATMOS doesn’t....at least that I’ve found.

 

[HomerJAU]

I’ve got a Denon AVR X7200WA (Marantz and Denon have same owner so I suspect have similar processors/firmware). On my remote there’s a set of ‘Sound Mode’ buttons. ‘Music’ pops up an option menu where I can choose to upmix to all speakers or use direct channel mapping (i.e no upmix).

 

[Hamilton59]

I’ve got a Denon AVR X7200WA (Marantz and Denon have same owner so I suspect have similar processors/firmware). On my remote there’s a set of ‘Sound Mode’ buttons. ‘Music’ pops up an option menu where I can choose to upmix to all speakers or use direct channel mapping (i.e no upmix).

I wish I had that option too. It was on my old SR7008, but I don’t see it on my SR8012 Now this only happens when I’m sending Bitstream thru HDMI from my Oppo. When I select my Music Mode button on the remote.

And Info for last screen shot to show speakers....

Any ideas how I can change this Bitstream behavior is most welcome !

 

[AYanguas]

I just completed the coding. I'll PM you a link to MMH 4.0.8 with these changes.

New Feature:
Remix Channel Layout Tool: Added new option to 'Move Quad rear channels to rear of 7.1 file'

Changes:
Remix Channel Layout Tool: User Defined Remix - increased max number of Channels to 8 (to support 7.1)

Could you please kindly test and provide feedback? If all looks good I'll publish the update.

No rush, when you get a chance to test.

Many Thanks,

I just installed the beta. Please look my PM answer.

 

[AYanguas]

I wish I had that option too. It was on my old SR7008, but I don’t see it on my SR8012 Now this only happens when I’m sending Bitstream thru HDMI from my Oppo. When I select my Music Mode button on the remote.
View attachment 56291 View attachment 56292 View attachment 56293
And Info for last screen shot to show speakers....

Any ideas how I can change this Bitstream behavior is most welcome !

It is a "known feature' + 'known bug' of the DTS decoder, at least in Denon.

1) DTS decoder 'copies' the Surround channels to the Surround back channels in an attempt to image the sound between each pair sides of surrounds to emulate the supposed position angle that a 5.1 would have with surrounds more at the rear, instead of surround sides location at 90º that is more usual in a 7.1 config. It also compensates for the two speaker sound level to have same level.
If you careful listen near the speakers, check that they sound the same and not different content as when 'upmixing'. THIS is the 'feature'

2) The display shows the Height speakers active, but really no sound goes to them. THIS is the 'bug' but only at the display pannel. You could check if height speakers are really silent.

3) What is new for me, because I never notice with DTS 4.0, is the display Center Speaker active. Perhaps is also a 'display bug' and the Center channel is silent.

So, in summary, it is a good implementation of DTS 5.1 playing in a 7.1 system to sound as if you had a 5.1 speakers system. Only display 'bug' keep lighting the rest of speakers, but they are silent (pending check the Center Channel).

When you select a PCM track in a Bluray instead of the DTS track this does not happen as it is not the DTS decoder working. You should have then available the Sound Option of Multichannel to get only the input channels from the signal (plus the SUB for bass management).