5.2.2 vs. 5.2.4?

[HomerJAU]

In-ceiling speakers are great. Some have a tweeter than can be rotated and tilted toward the main listening position (high frequency is more directional). I have Focal 300 series 8” that have good bass extension. Many Atmos albums have bass in tops, it’s not just ‘effects’

In-ceilings are almost invisible too. Certainly compared to hanging boxed speakers!

 

[sjcorne]

I've expanded from 7.1.4 to 9.1.4 (adding the pair of 'wide' speakers between the front and sides) and the results are interesting - more often than not they aren't used at all, but the new SW mix of The Grateful Dead's American Beauty engages them quite aggressively for the guitar and vocal parts that were previously dominant in the side surround speakers. A-Ha's "Take On Me" has the isolated lead vocal in the center & wides, making it sound a bit closer to the main listening position than before. The around-the-room pans in songs like Gentle Giant's "On Reflection" and Tori Amos "Addition Of Light Divided" move through the wide speakers as well.

 

[HomerJAU]

I am using these 300 series Focal in-ceilings, I think they sound great with good bass extension. They are not too expensive and shit all over others I auditioned. The cones are the same used in some of Focals high fi range.

https://www.focal.com/en/custom-int...00-series/in-wall/in-ceiling-speakers/300icw8
Easy to install. You can do it yourself with no tools except a saw to cut the hole. My ceilings are gyprock so a $15 saw cuts a perfect circle with ease.

Their website has polar dispersion graphs etc.

https://www.focal.com/sites/www.foc...alog/document/300icw8_specification-sheet.pdf

 

[riskylogic]

Having given my situation some more thought, I've have settled for the time being on the Denon AVR-X3700 as the least expensive receiver for four ceiling channels. However, since the rears in my current 7.1 setup are actually mounted just under the ceiling perhaps I should start thinking of them as the rear heights instead. Doing that would allow me to just add front heights for a 5.1.4 setup. How important for music are rear surrounds if you have side surrounds and rear heights? I'm thinking not very much.

I'm not really afraid to cut a hole, but since I have to get the wire there anyway why bother?

 

[HomerJAU]

There’s more music now with 4 Tops (Atmos) than 7.1 (with rears). For movies there’s possibly still more with 7.1 than Atmos, but that changing fast with most new releases now Atmos.

 

[HomerJAU]

Depending on your listening position you may need to move those rears from high on rear. Ideally (and highly recommended) your listening position should be in the centre of your four tops (ceiling). Just like a quad system, centre of the four corners gives best quad imaging. For Atmos centre of 4 tops gives best 3D imaging.

Having said that, doing an AVR room setup using it’s supplied calibration mic will compensate somewhat for off axis listening.

 

[sjcorne]

How important for music are rear surrounds if you have side surrounds and rear heights? I'm thinking not very much.

I've been pleasantly surprised at how much discrete information pops up in the rear surrounds, especially in Steven Wilson's Atmos mixes. That said - if I had to choose one or the other - having the rear heights makes a bigger difference in how the mix comes across.

 

[Albert Dagger]

However--I've noticed Steven Wilson tends to do circular pans around the heights in his Atmos mixes, and you don't quite get the same effect with just two up there. There's also a bit in the xPropaganda album (I think in the song "Chasing Utopia") where four German spoken-word voices appear discretely in each top speaker.

The side surround speakers are interesting as well, I've noticed that many of the streaming-exclusive mixes utilize them far more than the rear surrounds. For instance, the new Harry Styles albums is basically 5.1 with the odd isolated element in the rear surrounds (like the tom-tom rolls in the first track) and reverb in the ceiling. As has been mentioned in other threads, Bruce Soord's vocals in The Pineapple Thief's Nothing But The Truth are mixed entirely to the sides for an interesting almost-binaural 'inside the head' effect.

So yes, there are some fun tricks that come with having the space (and budget) for the extra speakers

Could you list me a few titles where you heard circular pans in the height speakers? I have a 5.1.2 system (with the ceiling speakers set up as top middle). I would like to experiment and check how these circular pans are rendered with my system.

 

[AYanguas]

I've expanded from 7.1.4 to 9.1.4 (adding the pair of 'wide' speakers between the front and sides) and the results are interesting - more often than not they aren't used at all, but the new SW mix of The Grateful Dead's American Beauty engages them quite aggressively for the guitar and vocal parts that were previously dominant in the side surround speakers. A-Ha's "Take On Me" has the isolated lead vocal in the center & wides, making it sound a bit closer to the main listening position than before. The around-the-room pans in songs like Gentle Giant's "On Reflection" and Tori Amos "Addition Of Light Divided" move through the wide speakers as well.

Good to know!

Welcome to the Wides Club

I see you feel the same as me. They are not used in many Atmos mixes. But when they are used significantly the results are noticeable for better.

 

[riskylogic]

Depending on your listening position you may need to move those rears from high on rear. Ideally (and highly recommended) your listening position should be in the centre of your four tops (ceiling). Just like a quad system, centre of the four corners gives best quad imaging. For Atmos centre of 4 tops gives best 3D imaging.

Having said that, doing an AVR room setup using it’s supplied calibration mic will compensate somewhat for off axis listening.

My 5.2.2 system is rear constrained and there's nothing to be done about it. My side surrounds are just behind the listener and the two heights are just in front.

The 7.1 is width constrained, but with lots of room in back. If I move the heights closer to the middle that might help. That will mean wires running across the ceiling, but hey it's the basement.

 

[sjcorne]

Could you list me a few titles where you heard circular pans in the height speakers? I have a 5.1.2 system (with the ceiling speakers set up as top middle). I would like to experiment and check how these circular pans are rendered with my system.

• Tears For Fears - The Tipping Point (swirling keys in heights during "My Demons" chorus)
• Porcupine Tree - Closure/Continuation (lone rhythm guitar circles heights before heavy instrumental break in "Harridan")
• Steven Wilson - The Future Bites (sound effects bounce around heights during second verse of "King Ghost")
• Kiss - Destroyer (car sound effects drive around heights after first chorus in "Detroit Rock City")
• King Crimson - In The Court (flute at end of "I Talk To The Wind" circles the heights)
• A-Ha - "Take On Me" (swirling keys above during instrumental break midway)

 

[Albert Dagger]

• Tears For Fears - The Tipping Point (swirling keys in heights during "My Demons" chorus)
• Porcupine Tree - Closure/Continuation (lone rhythm guitar circles heights before heavy instrumental break in "Harridan")
• Steven Wilson - The Future Bites (sound effects bounce around heights during second verse of "King Ghost")
• Kiss - Destroyer (car sound effects drive around heights after first chorus in "Detroit Rock City")
• King Crimson - In The Court (flute at end of "I Talk To The Wind" circles the heights)
• A-Ha - "Take On Me" (swirling keys above during instrumental break midway)

Thanks. I've done some listening tests. This is what I hear:

- Tears for Fears, My Demons, at 1:00 minute mark? I think I hear keys moving from the height to the rear speakers. Not necessarily a swirling effect (because the speakers are on different planes at different heights, but very effective nonetheless).

- Porcupine Tree, Harridan at 3:10: I do hear the guitar moving from the top right speaker to the top left one, then moving to the back speakers (I think rear right then rear left). There's a swirling effect, but it also moves up to down, in my case, due to the speaker's placement.

- Steven Wilson - King Ghost, at 2:30: This one was hard to notice for me because I hear sound effects in the height speakers and in the rear speakers, and they are quite blended together, but now that you told me I can understand how it would render with 4 height speakers.

- Kiss - Detroit Rock City - at 3:00-3:30, I can clearly hear the car sound effects moving from rear to height speakers and between left and right height speakers. I always thought it was supposed to sound from rear to height (like a jump), not swirling around the height speakers. It renders very well with a 5.1.2 set-up.

- King Crimson - I Talk to the Wind at 4:40 - the flute moves from rear right to top right, then top left (maybe rear left, top left), then top right again. The effect is very nice.

- A-ha - Take On Me - at 1:55 - Again, I hear the keys moving from the top speakers to the rear speakers (also left to right), but it feels like an effect starting in the top speakers and fading into the rear speakers. It's not bad by any means, but I wouldn't call it a swirling effect.

In summary, nothing is lost if one doesn't have four ceiling speakers, but in-plane swirling effects are more perceived as effects moving from top to rear speakers (and top to bottom). I would need to visit a friend with a 5.1.4 to get an immediate feedback on the way the same music renders on that set-up.

 

[Albert Dagger]

• Tears For Fears - The Tipping Point (swirling keys in heights during "My Demons" chorus)
• Porcupine Tree - Closure/Continuation (lone rhythm guitar circles heights before heavy instrumental break in "Harridan")
• Steven Wilson - The Future Bites (sound effects bounce around heights during second verse of "King Ghost")
• Kiss - Destroyer (car sound effects drive around heights after first chorus in "Detroit Rock City")
• King Crimson - In The Court (flute at end of "I Talk To The Wind" circles the heights)
• A-Ha - "Take On Me" (swirling keys above during instrumental break midway)

It would be interesting to hear your opinion on The Zero of the Signified, from Robert Fripp's box set. Particularly, the second half of the track has some great moments, with effects moving from the top left speaker to the rear right. I wonder how this renders in a x.x.4 system.

 

[sjcorne]

In summary, nothing is lost if one doesn't have four ceiling speakers, but in-plane swirling effects are more perceived as effects moving from top to rear speakers (and top to bottom). I would need to visit a friend with a 5.1.4 to get an immediate feedback on the way the same music renders on that set-up.

That's really interesting, I would have thought it condenses the movement across four height speakers into the two "top middle" channels.

For the all the examples I cited above, said swirling instrumentation is confined entirely to the four height speakers - it disappears completely if you mute them (I have my four heights powered by a separate amp, so it's easy to do this). It's definitely interesting hearing "I Talk To The Wind" without any of the flute parts.

It would be interesting to hear your opinion on The Zero of the Signified, from Robert Fripp's box set. Particularly, the second half of the track has some great moments, with effects moving from the top left speaker to the rear right. I wonder how this renders in a x.x.4 system.

I'd love to check it out, but I only dug Exposure enough to pick up the more-economical CD/DVD set

 

[Albert Dagger]

That's really interesting, I would have thought it condenses the movement across four height speakers into the two "top middle" channels.

For the all the examples I cited above, said swirling instrumentation is confined entirely to the four height speakers - it disappears completely if you mute them (I have my four heights powered by a separate amp, so it's easy to do this). It's definitely interesting hearing "I Talk To The Wind" without any of the flute parts.

I remember hearing some Atmos test files, where top front and top rear where condensed into top middle for me. I would need to check those files again.

 

[Albert Dagger]

I remember hearing some Atmos test files, where top front and top rear where condensed into top middle for me. I would need to check those files again.

Well, I listened to the 5.1.4 Atmos test files. The ceiling speakers are all condensed into the top middle left and top middle right speakers for me.
It is indeed strange I am hearing those effects in the files above in the rear speakers as well (assuming the effects are completely isolated in the ceiling speakers). There might be reverb in the rear speakers or transitions between rear and ceiling speakers, so even if the swirling effect is isolated in the top speakers, it blends well, and one can definitely hear things moving from rear to height. But I am happy to know those effects are not totally lost even if my ceiling speakers are in fact -stereo- and not -quad-.

 

[Albert Dagger]

• Tears For Fears - The Tipping Point (swirling keys in heights during "My Demons" chorus)
• Porcupine Tree - Closure/Continuation (lone rhythm guitar circles heights before heavy instrumental break in "Harridan")
• Steven Wilson - The Future Bites (sound effects bounce around heights during second verse of "King Ghost")
• Kiss - Destroyer (car sound effects drive around heights after first chorus in "Detroit Rock City")
• King Crimson - In The Court (flute at end of "I Talk To The Wind" circles the heights)
• A-Ha - "Take On Me" (swirling keys above during instrumental break midway)

I've been able to isolate the ceiling speakers (and vice versa, just the bed speakers) and I did more listening tests with Detroit Rock City. In fact, the car sound effects are isolated in the top speakers, moving left to right and changing in volume. There's nothing in the front or rear speakers, even though I had the impression/illusion there was something. So, I guess what I hear is stereo rather than quad with my ceiling speakers, but still very effective.

 

[AYanguas]

That's really interesting, I would have thought it condenses the movement across four height speakers into the two "top middle" channels.

I've been able to isolate the ceiling speakers (and vice versa, just the bed speakers) and I did more listening tests with Detroit Rock City. In fact, the car sound effects are isolated in the top speakers, moving left to right and changing in volume. There's nothing in the front or rear speakers, even though I had the impression/illusion there was something. So, I guess what I hear is stereo rather than quad with my ceiling speakers, but still very effective.

Very Interesting all your tests.

I have always believed that if an object is not fixed or "tied" to a particular speaker (I don't remember the right Atmos jargon) and is a 3D coordinates location, the Atmos renderer should try to image that location using several existing speakers.

For instance, In a 5.1.2, an object located in a Top Rear Atmos speaker location, could be imaged using both the Top Middle and the Rear, to get the 45º location. But the listener should be in the right sweet spot, if not, precedence effect and he/she will hear either from the Top Middle (keeping the height location) or from the floor Rear (down the location).

But, If the mixer option is to "tie" the object to a particular speaker, then the renderer result could be different if that speaker is missing in a configuration.

Your tests seems to confirm (more or less) this beahviour.

The imaging quality, or listener perception, would be dependent on the particular locations/angles of the actual installation. And if listening from the sweet spot.

P.D. I'm now at the summer house without access to Atmos, only 5.1. I cannot test (yet) all this.

 

[riskylogic]

Very Interesting all your tests.

I have always believed that if an object is not fixed or "tied" to a particular speaker (I don't remember the right Atmos jargon) and is a 3D coordinates location, the Atmos renderer should try to image that location using several existing speakers.

Thats why I figure I'm going to start my 7.1 system upgrade with 5.1.4 vs 7.1.2; I'll try hooking up the rear speakers both ways. Since the rear speakers are pretty far behind the listening area I don't think it will make much difference whether they are identified as ceiling or not.

 

[HomerJAU]

I have always believed that if an object is not fixed or "tied" to a particular speaker (I don't remember the right Atmos jargon) and is a 3D coordinates location, the Atmos renderer should try to image that location using several existing speakers.

That’s correct. But if the movement is in quad ceilings how can that be heard in stereo ceilings? It can’t. Just like listening to quad downmixed on a stereo system. You hear everything but the back to rear imaging is 2D.