A center channel that matches big vintage mains?

[somethingcleveridunno]

I really love old, beefy mains (currently on AR TSW 510s, but itching to swap my Utah A90s back in after a re-cap) that wrap you up in warm midrange like a blanket. My Paradigm center channel's got no balls and doesn't match at all. But I love how articulate it is with dialogue and vocals.

What's the secret sauce with getting a center to match up with that but in that slimmer form factor? Or is that even possible? And can that clarity I've got now be recreated with the compromises to play with the big speakers?

I've got a space in my stand that I'd like to build a center channel into, it's 22" by only 7" by as much depth as I need, but that 7" is the big limiting factor. But that's more space than I have between the top of the stand and the bottom of the projector screen, so it's really all I can manage right now. Could fit a WMtW setup in there.

Related to that, any good sites for DIY plans to crib off of?

 

[slmccaul]

One of my friends has a very dynamic HT system based on Klipsch speakers. He's using a Klipsch KLF-C7 center speaker and it's very dynamic and never the limiting factor in his system. They were manufactured 25 years ago for several years and should be available on the used market for a reasonable price. Not sure if it would match your setup but I'm sure it would keep up with your front L+R's. Good luck finding an appropriate match.

 

[par4ken]

IMHO a centre speaker should match the other speakers exactly! That is a tough thing to do if your other speakers are huge tall standing ones. I think that the centre is mostly unnecessary for music so I don't bother to use one.

I have thought about adding the centre myself speaker mainly for movies, as sometimes with all the sound effects going on it is hard to hear the dialog.

The speakers (all four) in my Living room are DIY "Transmission Line" speakers. I was thinking that I could build one using the same drivers making it shorter but deeper, keeping the line the same length. Just an idea, I currently have too many other projects on the go to start yet another!

There should be a lot of sites with DIY plans. One of the last times I looked I came upon a huge subwoofer design using a large Sonotube! I thought that it was so cool that would really get your house shaking!

Check Audio Express Magazine. You can get back issues of "Speaker Builder Magazine" on CD. Also back issues of "Audio Amatuer", my "transmission line" design was sourced from a 1977 issue.

https://cc-webshop.com/collections/speaker-builder-magazine

 

[ar surround]

It seems that the inventors of the vintage AR9 loudspeaker had a solution for installing a center channel speaker between giant main speakers decades ago. Apparently, I never got the memo:

 

[timothyemerson]

It seems that the inventors of the vintage AR9 loudspeaker had a solution for installing a center channel speaker between giant main speakers decades ago. Apparently, I never got the memo:

View attachment 100661

Dang, that speaker's got wheels for landing gear.

As they say in helicopter circles, "Skids are for kids".

"Helicopter circles" - I'm killing.

 

[Mr. Afternoon]

One solution would be to just get a third main...although that would only work if your television is wall mounted and your playback gear isn't in the front of the room. I currently have the room setup that way, prepping for when I can actually afford to match my center with my fronts.
Have you tried per-speaker EQ? That can really help with the consistency of sound across speakers.

 

[DrKlahn]

One of my friends has a very dynamic HT system based on Klipsch speakers. He's using a Klipsch KLF-C7 center speaker and it's very dynamic and never the limiting factor in his system. They were manufactured 25 years ago for several years and should be available on the used market for a reasonable price. Not sure if it would match your setup but I'm sure it would keep up with your front L+R's. Good luck finding an appropriate match.

I had the C7 and it is an outstanding center... for other horn loaded Klipsch speakers of a similar sound profile. Recently visited a theater with some older B&Ws paired with the C7 and it wasn't a great match.

As @par4ken says, it really does need to match as close as possible. So, a matching speaker if feasible is the best. I've also experienced issues folding the discrete center signal into the L/R, so if the plan is to listen to material that has a center channel I would get one.

 

[LuvMyQuad]

It seems that the inventors of the vintage AR9 loudspeaker had a solution for installing a center channel speaker between giant main speakers decades ago. Apparently, I never got the memo:

View attachment 100661

Well, it'd be hard to get that bad boy under my TV. Let alone spike it into the ground like that.....And a 4 point base as well. Were they simulating earthquakes or something? Maybe it's a venue requirement, for like.... Spinal Tap.

 

[cbmmm3]

 

[LuvMyQuad]

IMHO a centre speaker should match the other speakers exactly! That is a tough thing to do if your other speakers are huge tall standing ones. I think that the centre is mostly unnecessary for music so I don't bother to use one.

For quite some time, I felt just like you about this subject. But I'm wavering in recent years.

So, suppose the center speaker in question is audibly and significantly superior to the front mains. Would you still insist they need to be identical?

The benefit for identical units being how well images will set up across the center and either of the mains. The image distorts as the more dissimilar sounding the center vs mains become. In a similar way to how mismatched L/R mains would sound. Right?

I think this used to be a much bigger issue back in the early days of quad when various dynaquad schemes were used. The centers were passive in those systems, and they needed to use identical drivers so that, electrically, it would work properly.

For playing Quad - it's a moot point.

For playing 5.1/7.1/Atmos, I think it depends on different factors.

Many of the mixes I hear, do not share a lot of info with the mains in an effort to create an image. Depending on the mixer, they often contain discrete vocals/instruments, or maybe reverb from the rears/mains. Sometimes the mixer doesn't use the center, or more often puts a very low level mono mix there which cant even be heard. There are no hard and fast rules for how a music center is used.

I suspect if you are a serious classical or jazz listener, the above generalizations don't work for you. But this seems to be the way most of the stuff I listen to is mixed. A small timber mismatch just isn't readily audible when you play most rock/prog music. It is more important to get the heights right IMO.

I think the size of your room matters. The smaller the listening space, the less the center is really needed.

There is no denying the benefit of the center when it comes to movie dialog. Even if you prefer centerless surround music, having a dedicated dialog source for video is well worth pursuing.

 

[LuvMyQuad]

View attachment 100662

I'll bet that sounds great. None of that MTM compromise

 

[DrKlahn]

For quite some time, I felt just like you about this subject. But I'm wavering in recent years.

So, suppose the center speaker in question is audibly and significantly superior to the front mains. Would you still insist they need to be identical?

The benefit for identical units being how well images will set up across the center and either of the mains. The image distorts as the more dissimilar sounding the center vs mains become. In a similar way to how mismatched L/R mains would sound. Right?

I think this used to be a much bigger issue back in the early days of quad when various dynaquad schemes were used. The centers were passive in those systems, and they needed to use identical drivers so that, electrically, it would work properly.

For playing Quad - it's a moot point.

For playing 5.1/7.1/Atmos, I think it depends on different factors.

Many of the mixes I hear, do not share a lot of info with the mains in an effort to create an image. Depending on the mixer, they often contain discrete vocals/instruments, or maybe reverb from the rears/mains. Sometimes the mixer doesn't use the center, or more often puts a very low level mono mix there which cant even be heard. There are no hard and fast rules for how a music center is used.

I suspect if you are a serious classical or jazz listener, the above generalizations don't work for you. But this seems to be the way most of the stuff I listen to is mixed. A small timber mismatch just isn't readily audible when you play most rock/prog music. It is more important to get the heights right IMO.

I think the size of your room matters. The smaller the listening space, the less the center is really needed.

There is no denying the benefit of the center when it comes to movie dialog. Even if you prefer centerless surround music, having a dedicated dialog source for video is well worth pursuing.

I've heard enough mixes where a vocal or instrument will pan that I would still say that matching is very important. But I don't disagree that if no panning is involved matching is less of an issue.

The problem with a phantom center is that you're reliant on how well that channel folds into the L/R. I've heard instances where this doesn't match the sonic experience of having the discrete channel. In a lot of cases, phantom works fine though. Unless I had a space constraint, I would still recommend a center.

 

[ar surround]

My center speaker isn’t as big as my AR9 mains, of course. But I use an AR91, a 3-way 58 lb beast that incorporated the same drivers as the AR9.

I started out with a small speaker for the center and increased the speaker size three times before settling on the AR91. Anything larger just would be insane…like in the photo I posted above.

 

[paligap]

I really love old, beefy mains (currently on AR TSW 510s, but itching to swap my Utah A90s back in after a re-cap) that wrap you up in warm midrange like a blanket. My Paradigm center channel's got no balls and doesn't match at all. But I love how articulate it is with dialogue and vocals.

What's the secret sauce with getting a center to match up with that but in that slimmer form factor? Or is that even possible? And can that clarity I've got now be recreated with the compromises to play with the big speakers?

I've got a space in my stand that I'd like to build a center channel into, it's 22" by only 7" by as much depth as I need, but that 7" is the big limiting factor. But that's more space than I have between the top of the stand and the bottom of the projector screen, so it's really all I can manage right now. Could fit a WMtW setup in there.

Related to that, any good sites for DIY plans to crib off of?

What model center speaker do you have now? It's hard to imagine a speaker that would fit in your proposed space that would sound better.

 

[somethingcleveridunno]

What model center speaker do you have now? It's hard to imagine a speaker that would fit in your proposed space that would sound better.

I ended up getting a Paradigm CC-100. Just barely fits under the projector screen, atop the media stand.

 

[marpow]

For quite some time, I felt just like you about this subject. But I'm wavering in recent years.

So, suppose the center speaker in question is audibly and significantly superior to the front mains. Would you still insist they need to be identical?

The benefit for identical units being how well images will set up across the center and either of the mains. The image distorts as the more dissimilar sounding the center vs mains become. In a similar way to how mismatched L/R mains would sound. Right?

I think this used to be a much bigger issue back in the early days of quad when various dynaquad schemes were used. The centers were passive in those systems, and they needed to use identical drivers so that, electrically, it would work properly.

For playing Quad - it's a moot point.

For playing 5.1/7.1/Atmos, I think it depends on different factors.

Many of the mixes I hear, do not share a lot of info with the mains in an effort to create an image. Depending on the mixer, they often contain discrete vocals/instruments, or maybe reverb from the rears/mains. Sometimes the mixer doesn't use the center, or more often puts a very low level mono mix there which cant even be heard. There are no hard and fast rules for how a music center is used.

I suspect if you are a serious classical or jazz listener, the above generalizations don't work for you. But this seems to be the way most of the stuff I listen to is mixed. A small timber mismatch just isn't readily audible when you play most rock/prog music. It is more important to get the heights right IMO.

I think the size of your room matters. The smaller the listening space, the less the center is really needed.

There is no denying the benefit of the center when it comes to movie dialog. Even if you prefer centerless surround music, having a dedicated dialog source for video is well worth pursuing.

Luv, I so much enjoyed reading your experience as it has evolved to where you are at today.
I have a complete matched B&W speaker system, 9 of them, and I am building my self up to switch my two main fronts (opposite of this topic) but close enough, to a pair of Klipsch Heritage speakers, just don't know which ones yet.
My surround listening experience is stellar, but I feel my stereo listening experience is lacking, and I am really evolving towards stereo listening as of late.
I hope if I do go by way of two front Heritage Klipsch it doesn't wreck my surround that I have now?
Anyway, I just wanted to say how much I agree with you and I will say when center speaker is used for dialog, bigger is better.
I had a smaller center before and when my wife and I where watching the tube we where constantly looking at each and saying 'what did they say, especially the Brits, then I bought the largest at the time B&W center, and that problem was 100% gone, except maybe once in awhile when a Scotsman is talking,
Side note: I have been working with Mitch Barnett the last couple weeks, and already, improvements have been quite amazing.
I plan on posting my experience later, but this is a busy time of year for me.

 

[paligap]

I ended up getting a Paradigm CC-100. Just barely fits under the projector screen, atop the media stand.

Ah, I didn't even notice the dates of the first three posts.

 

[DrKlahn]

Luv, I so much enjoyed reading your experience as it has evolved to where you are at today.
I have a complete matched B&W speaker system, 9 of them, and I am building my self up to switch my two main fronts (opposite of this topic) but close enough, to a pair of Klipsch Heritage speakers, just don't know which ones yet.
My surround listening experience is stellar, but I feel my stereo listening experience is lacking, and I am really evolving towards stereo listening as of late.
I hope if I do go by way of two front Heritage Klipsch it doesn't wreck my surround that I have now?
Anyway, I just wanted to say how much I agree with you and I will say when center speaker is used for dialog, bigger is better.
I had a smaller center before and when my wife and I where watching the tube we where constantly looking at each and saying 'what did they say, especially the Brits, then I bought the largest at the time B&W center, and that problem was 100% gone, except maybe once in awhile when a Scotsman is talking,
Side note: I have been working with Mitch Barnett the last couple weeks, and already, improvements have been quite amazing.
I plan on posting my experience later, but this is a busy time of year for me.

My first good setup was built around Klipsch speakers from the '90's (that was the setup that used the C7 center). I moved to a B&W CM setup after about 10 years (and then switched again a few years ago). I don't know what your current B&Ws are and I haven't heard the Heritage lineup. I have head Klipsch La Scalas and Hereseys. If the Heritages you're looking at are close to those, I don't think they would be a great match for any modern B&W's I've heard.

One thing I did notice with B&W's is that the L/R speakers are pretty sensitive to toe in to get a great stereo image. In my setup the L/R flank a 10' wide screen and toeing them to target to the sides of the MLP produces a rock solid center image with great detail and spaciousness. It was definitely trial and error to find their sweet spot.

I loved the La Scalas, but there was no way to build a 7.1 system around them in the room I have. If I were you and I was in love with the Heritages I would try to find space to build a 2ch setup around them and leave the existing setup for Atmos and immersive music. Of course that's not always possible. I'd love to have a room for 2ch, but there's no space for it. So my room is a compromise between movies and music (with more of an emphasis on music).

 

[marpow]

My first good setup was built around Klipsch speakers from the '90's (that was the setup that used the C7 center). I moved to a B&W CM setup after about 10 years (and then switched again a few years ago). I don't know what your current B&Ws are and I haven't heard the Heritage lineup. I have head Klipsch La Scalas and Hereseys. If the Heritages you're looking at are close to those, I don't think they would be a great match for any modern B&W's I've heard.

One thing I did notice with B&W's is that the L/R speakers are pretty sensitive to toe in to get a great stereo image. In my setup the L/R flank a 10' wide screen and toeing them to target to the sides of the MLP produces a rock solid center image with great detail and spaciousness. It was definitely trial and error to find their sweet spot.

I loved the La Scalas, but there was no way to build a 7.1 system around them in the room I have. If I were you and I was in love with the Heritages I would try to find space to build a 2ch setup around them and leave the existing setup for Atmos and immersive music. Of course that's not always possible. I'd love to have a room for 2ch, but there's no space for it. So my room is a compromise between movies and music (with more of an emphasis on music).

Thank you so much, yes, I agree with you, I probably want two good things, a killer stereo set up and a killer surround set up, and as we know they can come together very close mashed as one, like what probably 99% of us have, but the ultimate experience is either one or the other.
KLIPSCH HERITAGE SPEAKERS
I would like those big La Scala A5's.

I agree, a space for 2 channel would be great, but that will not happen, I was lucky enough that my wife let me have the third of our 3 bedrooms. She enjoys the space every night when we watch TV.

 

[DrKlahn]

Thank you so much, yes, I agree with you, I probably want two good things, a killer stereo set up and a killer surround set up, and as we know they can come together very close mashed as one, like what probably 99% of us have, but the ultimate experience is either one or the other.
KLIPSCH HERITAGE SPEAKERS
I would like those big La Scala A5's.

I agree, a space for 2 channel would be great, but that will not happen, I was lucky enough that my wife let me have the third of our 3 bedrooms. She enjoys the space every night when we watch TV.

Yeah I REALLY loved the La Scalas. I got to hear these Vittora Speakers - Volti Audio - Hi-Efficiency Horn Speakers at an audio fest in Texas a few years ago and they were outstanding and might actually have been better than the Klipsch speakers they are obviously inspired by. But like I said, those things would just take sooo much space. A center would never fit under the screen and necessitate changing the room to build around an AT (acoustically transparent) screen. I could maybe have made them work for channels 4/5, but I don't think I could see how they would ever work for channels 6/7 (just no space). And then what would you match to these for Atmos (or channels 6/7)? They're pretty unique in their sound signature, I think it would be really tough.

What is your current B&W setup? Would 700 series 2 or 3 towers integrate well with what you have? I've gotten to hear them on several occasions and they sound very good to my ear. Enough that I actually retrofitted the 700 series 2 carbon tweeters to my 7 CM speakers when I had them. Might be worth considering as a compromise.