A&M Quad Mixes, Cross Channel Reverb & SQ

[sjcorne]

They booked a studio for the remix that lacked enough board inputs for all the channels and reverbs. This shows up in many early Columbia or Epic quads as reverbless instruments (a glaring example is the dry, hokey synth in Great Suburban Showdown on Streetlife Serenade).

The lack of reverb on most CBS quads probably has something to with SQ compatibility as well. Some of the later CBS titles that more closely resemble their stereo counterparts tend to decode worse than the earlier dry 'four-corner' mixes. The O'Jays' Family Reunion would be a good example - it's an incredible quad mix with practically every nuance of the original replicated, but the SQ LP is a mess.

 

[Eggplant]

The lack of reverb on most CBS quads probably has something to with SQ compatibility as well.

Don’t think so.

I haven’t even heard the SQ versions of many of the dry Columbia quads. I was referring mostly to the discrete versions released by dts Entertainment and Audio Fidelity (Turnstiles obviously notwithstanding.)

Actually SQ handles reverb quite well, especially delayed in the rear. What it can’t do at all is two separate stereo pans in front and rear, as in Silent Eyes on Still Crazy After All These Years. The front piano and rear chorale all blend together.

 

[bmoura]

The lack of reverb on most CBS quads probably has something to with SQ compatibility as well. Some of the later CBS titles that more closely resemble their stereo counterparts tend to decode worse than the earlier dry 'four-corner' mixes. The O'Jays' Family Reunion would be a good example - it's an incredible quad mix with practically every nuance of the original replicated, but the SQ LP is a mess.

That's right. In fact, one of the reasons that A&M moved to CD-4 releases (vs. SQ) is so that they could use "cross channel reverb" on their 4 Channel mixes without worrying about how matrix decoders would work with these Quad mixes.

 

[Eggplant]

That's right. In fact, one of the reasons that A&M moved to CD-4 releases (vs. SQ) is so that they could use "cross channel reverb" on their 4 Channel mixes without worrying about how matrix decoders would work with these Quad mixes.

Can you give us more detail on this?
Where did you hear or read this?

 

[sjcorne]

Where did you hear or read this?

1975 interview with Marv Bornstein:

 

[J. PUPSTER]

1975 interview with Marv Bornstein:
View attachment 52359

Fascinating read!

I guess I misunderstand something here- early on he says:

"Some artists have discussed planning out a quad LP but so far non have taken the initial step."

Then later he says:

"Several musicians have mixed their own quad LP, including Quincy Jones, Rick Wakeman and Chuck Mangione."

 

[JonUrban]

I wish I could paste here what an industry insider told me when I mentioned to him that the A&M quads were done by Marv Bornstein.

It's not very flattering.

[3/16/2015]

 

[bmoura]

Marv Bornstein was an interesting choice to do the A&M Quad Mixes since he was the Quality Control Manager of the label at the time.

 

[Eggplant]

I wish I could paste here what an industry insider told me when I mentioned to him that the A&M quads were done by Marv Bornstein.

It's not very flattering.

[3/16/2015]

Um ... yeah.

“A&M Producer Maintains Integrity Of Original Mix”

You wish.

“There are no industry standards for how a 4-channel disk is supposed to sound.”

Maybe there should be?
(Actually, today there are now de facto ones.)

“Neither the artist nor producer is at hand”

Off to a great start right there, for sure.

“Bornstein ... doesn’t do anything radical”

No shit.

“Producers’ ... schedules don’t allow them to come back and work on ... the project.”

My brain surgeon said the same thing when I got a headache.

“We don’t stick a guitar in the corner just to let the listener say, ‘there’s a guitar coming out of that corner’”

Because that would end civilization?

“Bornstein doesn’t enjoy ‘things popping out of corners.’”

Marv Baby seems a tad confused about what this whole quad thing is.

“Mixing ... into quad means ... not offering anything SHOCKING to JOLT the ... home listener.”

Cuz God knows we “home listeners” wouldn't want anything like that.

Jesus.

 

[MidiMagic]

That's right. In fact, one of the reasons that A&M moved to CD-4 releases (vs. SQ) is so that they could use "cross channel reverb" on their 4 Channel mixes without worrying about how matrix decoders would work with these Quad mixes.

There is no reason why this cannot be done in SQ, except that trying to first mix to a discrete 4ch tape and then encoding that in SQ would make a zxnrbled mess of it.

The mix would have to be made with the mixer set up for encoding SQ. Then it is easy.

 

[JonUrban]

Marv Bornstein was an interesting choice to do the A&M Quad Mixes since he was the Quality Control Manager of the label at the time.

I was told he was just the guy "in charge of the tape vaults". A perfect choice to mix all of the labels quad product?????

 

[bmoura]

I was told he was just the guy "in charge of the tape vaults". A perfect choice to mix all of the labels quad product?????

That was consistent with how the other major labels handled Quad and reissues.
It was done by the "Special Markets" or "New Product Development" office at the record label. Not the core record label team.

 

[jaybird100]

Fascinating read!

I guess I misunderstand something here- early on he says:

"Some artists have discussed planning out a quad LP but so far non have taken the initial step."

Then later he says:

"Several musicians have mixed their own quad LP, including Quincy Jones, Rick Wakeman and Chuck Mangione."

I think you could add The Carpenters to that list, too. Richard knew his way around a mixer board, and insisted on doing the mixes himself. His were some of A&M's best mixes.

 

[aludra]

It also said in the above article that Bornstein only mixes at night.....Hmmmmm....how many cocktails did he have before getting behind the console?

I also fully agree that Richard Carpenters mixes were very good

 

[Beefalo]

It also said in the above article that Bornstein only mixes at night.....Hmmmmm....how many cocktails did he have before getting behind the console?

 

[Eggplant]

I also fully agree that Richard Carpenters mixes were very good

Which quads did he do?
I know he was involved with the later 5.1.

Horizon, Now and Then and Greatest Hits were good, but A Song for You is a typical early-A&M double-stereo turd. Haven’t heard the debut, The Carpenters.

 

[sjcorne]

Horizon, Now and Then and Greatest Hits were good...

I couldn’t find a remix credit on the Horizon LP jacket, but Now & Then and The Singles were both done by Bornstein & Chiate. I recall reading somewhere that the Carpenters were interested in quad and had some involvement in the mixes.

 

[ArmyOfQuad]

When I inquired about the quad mix of Captain and Tennille - Love Will Keep Us Together, my message got to Dennis Dragon - mixing & primary audio engineer (for the stereo mix). His response gives some insight to quad mixing at A&M.

when I was around a&m studios after “love will...” was a huge hit, I walked by the “quad mix room” and heard that song being re-mixed by their “quad specialist” team of engineers. I popped in for a quick listen and heard NOTHING that resembled my mix. I asked if they would like my assistance with this, and was told that was “their job”.

oh well..... “whatever”...

dennis dragon

 

[Eggplant]

dennis dragon

Don’t you mean Daryl Dragon, the keyboardist and one-time hubby of Toni Tenille? There was a drummer named Dennis Dragon who was murdered, but he was from Oregon. Besides, I’m pretty sure A&M had a one Dragon per project limit.

 

[Circular Vibes]

Question and answer from Richard Carpenter's site on his involvemwnt with quad mixes.

"Is Richard considering using recordings used for the Quad mixes from some 30 years ago on the new SACDs? Fans would simply eat that up.”

"No, no, no, no. Quad was a dubious experiment, and Karen & I were on the road and had no time to oversee the quadraphonic mixes ourselves. An A&M staff engineer - not Ray Gerhardt - did the remixes and I was anything but happy with them. Technology has come light years and I can guarantee the 5.1 remixes will be far superior to the Quad."