Another Poll: 5.1 or 5.0?

[Kal Rubinson]

The AVR's output to the subwoofer has two mixed contents:

1) The LFE channel that is the .1 content channel. This channel can be empty or silence the same way the Center channel is silenced in a Quad mix.

2) The Bass Management content. When a speaker (other than the SUB) is configured as "Small", the frequencies below the crossover (normally 80 Hz but can be configured to other frequency) is sent to the Subwoofer instead of the speaker channel. Otherwise, speaker configured as "Large" receives the full channel band and nothing is sent to the Subwoofer.

Some recommend that all speakers be configured as "Small" even if they are good full bandwith speakers, because the Subwoofer (powered) will be more capable of reproducing the low frequencies. And the main speakers will be working better and cleaner with less load.

Some others prefer to have full bass from all main speakers if they are capable of low bass.

The music with very low frequency (organ, electronic synthesized,...) can be properly played through Bass Management to the Subwoofer. There is no need to add content to the LFE channel, that could be phase delayed, thus generating room cancelation problems.

But if someone has speakers not capable of low frequencies and the Bass Management is not properly configured, then he will miss the low frequencies. For that people, I think, some producers keep generating content for the LFE channel.

Correct but can we presume that the LFE content is, in fact, duplicated in the main channels or if it is, literally, the bearer of low frequency effects? Of the three options in this poll, I can and will do any, depending on the recording.

 

[Mr. Afternoon]

Correct but can we presume that the LFE content is, in fact, duplicated in the main channels or if it is, literally, the bearer of low frequency effects? Of the three options in this poll, I can and will do any, depending on the recording.

With my mixing style, presume it is duplicated in the main channels. I do love me some directional bass, and digital has enough headroom for my -24 LUFS masters.

 

[MidiMagic]

I’m still confused. Why have a sub if it’s silenced? Sure most music doesn’t go below the 40 Hz that my Emotiva stealth 8s will hit, but there are a few big honkin’ pipe organ notes that go to 16 (take THAT, Spinal Tap!) Hz.

Is the poll just for music reproduction? Without the sub, “Interstellar” would be half as entertaining.

Does anyone remember “Earthquake” in “Sensurround?”

Sensurround is not like Dolby Stereo. It is a control track system with subwoofers on both sides of the audience.

Anything that goes below 10Hz can cause extreme pain in people who have stenosis of the helicotrema.

I still do not understand why there is not a single standard way of recording 5.1.

 

[AYanguas]

Correct but can we presume that the LFE content is, in fact, duplicated in the main channels or if it is, literally, the bearer of low frequency effects? Of the three options in this poll, I can and will do any, depending on the recording.

I don't think we have to presume anything.

Each mixer/mastering can produce in a different manner. With or without LFE content. With content duplicated or not. Either intentionally or mistakenly wrong, like for example Steve Hackett - Surrender of Silence Blu-ray that have the LFE delayed 180º, i.e. is phase inverted.

 

[AYanguas]

With my mixing style, presume it is duplicated in the main channels. I do love me some directional bass, and digital has enough headroom for my -24 LUFS masters.

Of the three options of this poll, I would miss the one about LFE content delayed from fronts bass. Many think that this is a mistake, but considering that there are many productions with this "feature" perpahs is an intentional technique that we don't understand.

When directional bass is intended, then, of course, the content has to be in the fronts and even surround channels. The duplication in the LFE channel can be offered to those who love furniture and walls to shake.

 

[AYanguas]

I still do not understand why there is not a single standard way of recording 5.1.

The LFE channel was conceived for Films. Its name, low frequency Effects, is naming that, the sound effects that are added in the films to show extreme situations.

The Production for the use of LFE channel for films is standardized.

When the Home Cinema standard 5.1 entered our houses in the 90's, it was a convenient system to deliver Multichannel Music. But the use of LFE channel for music has never been standardized, because, I presume, there is no wide market for that. The whole majority of films and series (streaming and DVD/Bluray) have multichannel 5.1 tracks. BUT, only a very very few musical production has multichannel mixes. There is no similar market demand from the people that have 5.1 systems, with respect to consuming Films and consuming Music.

 

[barfle]

I see now that the question is “silenced LFE,” which, I suppose, means “all the stuff that isn’t music.” So stuff like the canons in “1812?”

I don’t think my system has a setting for that, other than the power swich on the sub.

 

[barfle]

Sensurround is not like Dolby Stereo. It is a control track system with subwoofers on both sides of the audience.

Anything that goes below 10Hz can cause extreme pain in people who have stenosis of the helicotrema.

I still do not understand why there is not a single standard way of recording 5.1.

I did see “Earthquake” with the sensurround speakers. It was a nice try, but the reason for my mentioning of it was as an example of LFE back when I was dating. I don’t know what signals they actually put in those monster subs, but it was a pretty loud and deep rumble. Interesting, I was in southern California at the time, and the audience was pretty used to earthquakes. My DVD of the movie doesn’t have quite that level coming from my sub, and even with my floating floor, I don’t get a hint of the jiggle that a real quake causes.

 

[AYanguas]

I see now that the question is “silenced LFE,” which, I suppose, means “all the stuff that isn’t music.” So stuff like the canons in “1812?”

I don’t think my system has a setting for that, other than the power swich on the sub.

I don't quite follow you.

Silenced LFE is 5.1 (six channels for compatibility playback) with LFE channel with no content. When we talk about 70's quad mixes released in 5.1, the Center channel is also "silenced". Any doubts about that?

All the stuff that isn't music (i.e. sounds) can and will be delivered through the rest of the channels.

You dont't need any system setting for that. Once the mixer has created a 5.1 mix with the LFE silent, your system just plays six channels (5.1) and the content for the LFE channel is null.

I'm afraid I'm explaining obvious things, or perhaps I didn't understand your comments?

 

[Kal Rubinson]

With my mixing style, presume it is duplicated in the main channels.

I don't know if I have any of your recordings but we don't construct our systems to suit any single producer, at least, I do not.

 

[Mr. Afternoon]

I don't know if I have any of your recordings but we don't construct our systems to suit any single producer, at least, I do not.

I understand that, but I made the poll asking what I should deliver in to QQ members. Sorry if I did not indicate that clearly in the beginning. I've added an edit an the beginning of the thread.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

I understand that, but I made the poll asking what I should deliver in to QQ members. Sorry if I did not indicate that clearly in the beginning. I've added an edit an the beginning of the thread.

Ah. In that case, I would vote for 5.1 with silent LFE since that is the most standard format playable without additional channel-mapping on most systems.

 

[~dave~~wave~]

I understand that, but I made the poll asking what I should deliver in to QQ members. Sorry if I did not indicate that clearly in the beginning. I've added an edit an the beginning of the thread.

Look, buddy, it's real simple.
We paid a lot of money for our subwoofers.
We have confirmation bias that they should be used, and make everything sound better.
We also are gear heads.
WE will decide if you mixed the sub too low or too loud, and adjust it to taste.

Clear enough? (Leg emoji. Feel me pulling on yours?)

In all seriousness, I followed my listen of the Animals remix yesterday with the 2013 Wilson Close To The Edge.
There's a good example on it of a strong LFE signal providing extra heft.

At the beginning of the second track, And You And I, after the acoustic guitar intro trails off, Chris Squire plays a kick drum-like rhythm on the lowest open string of his bass guitar to set the tempo and establish the "one" for Howe's guitar to come in.
Ba-da-da ba-da

That note is a low D, from him tuning his E string down a step.
The fundamental frequency of that note is 36.7 Hz.
50 years ago there were few speakers other than massive expensive Klipschorns that could reproduce that note.
Obviously, when I was listening to it then on bookshelf speakers in a dorm room, the low end rolled off and our brains interpolated from the overtones.
I consider it best practice that Wilson doubled the fundamental in the LFE channel along with the mains on the modern 5.1 mix.

You might also take into account there were no five and six-string bass guitars tuned to low B (31 Hz) 50 years ago, but they are everywhere today.
Live sound, automotive sound, and home systems have evolved to accommodate this in a musical way, not just cartoonishly with subwoofer contests and untz untz EDM genres.
It is expected and appreciated.

Just my two cents.

 

[SeeMoreDigital]

For anyone who's interested: What is an LFE channel?

 

[AYanguas]

For anyone who's interested: What is an LFE channel?

Thank you for the link.

It clearly explains what I said in previous post.
Distintion among LFE channel and Bass Management content.
LFE was conceived for Films and its use is standardized.
Thus, the LFE is used for music with the mixer/mastering criteria, with no recommended standards.

 

[Sal1950]

There should be another choice,
I Don't Care
I'm not being sarcastic but I'll bass manage my system in the way I feel it can reproduce music & film best.
It's up the the producer to decide how he wants to present it's bass content.

 

[barfle]

I don't quite follow you.

Silenced LFE is 5.1 (six channels for compatibility playback) with LFE channel with no content. When we talk about 70's quad mixes released in 5.1, the Center channel is also "silenced". Any doubts about that?

All the stuff that isn't music (i.e. sounds) can and will be delivered through the rest of the channels.

You dont't need any system setting for that. Once the mixer has created a 5.1 mix with the LFE silent, your system just plays six channels (5.1) and the content for the LFE channel is null.

I'm afraid I'm explaining obvious things, or perhaps I didn't understand your comments?

It seems the poll question is about one’s setup, whether it be static or modified for individual listening sessions, but so far, I’ve had no clarification. That’s my ongoing question, along with “what’s the use of a channel when it’s silent?”

Not all the stuff that isn’t music can be played through limited range speakers. If the content is below 40 Hz, it goes through my sub, and if it’s silenced, I’ll miss it. Yeah, obvious, but we seem to be talking past each other for some reason.

Or maybe the poll question is about one’s preferred mixes - I still don’t know. As noted, I originally assumed it meant one’s physical setup, and that’s how I voted, but without more information, I remain confused as to what the poll is asking about.

 

[barfle]

I understand that, but I made the poll asking what I should deliver in to QQ members. Sorry if I did not indicate that clearly in the beginning. I've added an edit an the beginning of the thread.

Ahh, finally clarification! Thank you!

For me, my vote doesn’t change. If I have speakers, I want to use them. Gimme all you got!

 

[Sal1950]

EDIT: This poll is asking how I should deliver MY MUSIC to you guys.

What ever way you think will best present your music.
Your the artist here.
As to active channels, many including myself have learned, if your data stream isn't a full 5.1 or better (like quad) many receivers will get confused on the decoding.
We have had to use software like Gary's MMH to add missing silent channels to set playback right.

 

[Sal1950]

I don't understand what you mean by "a silent but present LFE channel." If it is silent, why have it present?

As to active channels, many including myself have learned, if your data stream isn't a full 5.1 or better (like quad) many receivers will get confused on the decoding.
We have had to use software like Gary's MMH to add missing silent channels to set playback right.