Any advice on building a Surround Music Server.

[LuvMyQuad]

Certainly when I bought my 'balanced' system in the 80s the ratio in price was 3:1 turntable vs speakers (and both the turntable and speakers were made by Linn!). The argument was, the speakers can only reproduce the quality of the sound they are presented with. You can't make a silk purse from a sow's ear. If the music source is picking up all the subtleties in the music then it will sound better whatever speakers you use.

And I seem to remember that the argument was contentious at the time. However I have always thought there was an element of truth in it.

Why is it that some people today prefer vinyl to digital. I suggest it's the same principal, the quality at source is vital.

That is certainly the line of thought pushed by Linn. If i were a manufacturer of expensive turntables (as were Linn's tables in the 70's) I'd push that mantra too. It was difficult to get people to spend 10x what they thought was reasonable on a turntable in those days. The price had to be justified somehow, especially when faced with the sexier but cheaper direct drive designs from the likes of Technics and Denon. And to an extent, the turntable did affect the sound, but no where near the extent that speaker choice did. A great speaker always sounds great, but maybe just a bit greater when used with a great TT and cartridge. That doesn't mean you could skimp on speakers because you had a superior TT,

We are also forgetting to mention the importance of the recording itself, which, in my opinion, is the biggest factor of all.

The people I know who prefer vinyl do not base that preference on sound quality. Its based on nostalgia, large format, and ritual, Most of them also play old cassettes. That should tell you something.

 

[J. PUPSTER]

I view speakers and room acoustics as having a kind of symbiotic aural relationship; I’ve always wondered (everything else being reasonably the same) if a system in Denver (mile high city) would sound different than one in say New Orleans at sea level with both the thinness of air and pressures coming into play.

 

[LuvMyQuad]

I don't have an Oppo. Would the quality of the DAC in the Oppo be superior to the DAC in my AVR?

That's hard to say, and ultimately only you can determine that. The DACs in the 103 and 203 are more similar in design to the standard audio fare found in good AVRs. The DACs in the 105 and 205 are built to be more robust with higher end chips. The real advantage with any of them is you can feed them digital streams via USB and get multichannel analog out. The bottom line is they are out of business and only used models are available to buy, often at over-inflated prices.

I ran the automatic speaker setup that came with the AVR (with the attached microphone). I looked into using REW but considered that too high end. I guess I was put off because it involved spending £100 on a measurement mic. Was I wrong?

See this is the part I don't get. You balk at spending £100 on a measurement mic because its too high end, but are willing to put money into linear power supplies and high performance memory in a media player (that's not too high end?). The use of REW, if properly applied, would produce a relatively large difference in sound quality. Its whole purpose is to make a difference. Spending nearly as much money on memory and power supplies would likely produce nothing you could actually hear.

You cant go wrong improving the rooms acoustics. The next best thing is to compensate for them via something like Dirac or REW.

 

[LuvMyQuad]

I view speakers and room acoustics as having a kind of symbiotic aural relationship; I’ve always wondered (everything else being reasonably the same) if a system in Denver (mile high city) would sound different than one in say New Orleans at sea level with both the thinness of air and pressures coming into play.

I've heard that the air pressure does play a part, but have no first hand knowledge.

 

[J. PUPSTER]

I've heard that the air pressure does play a part, but have no first hand knowledge.

Also the humidity would make the air denser in New Orleans would it not? Maybe @kap'n krunch has some real world knowledge and opinions about this, he just moved from Denver to New Orleans, but then the rooms would be much different.

 

[Soundfield]

I've heard that the air pressure does play a part, but have no first hand knowledge.

Sound intensity is given by

I=ξ2ω2cρ

where ξ is the particle displacement, ω the frequency, c the speed of sound and ρ the density of the medium.

So sound intensity is roughly proportional to the density of the air (which is proportional to the pressure). i.e. all other things being equal, a particular speaker displacement at low air pressure will sound quieter than at high air pressure. Small effect though.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

Certainly when I bought my 'balanced' system in the 80s the ratio in price was 3:1 turntable vs speakers (and both the turntable and speakers were made by Linn!). The argument was, the speakers can only reproduce the quality of the sound they are presented with. You can't make a silk purse from a sow's ear. If the music source is picking up all the subtleties in the music then it will sound better whatever speakers you use.

And I seem to remember that the argument was contentious at the time. However I have always thought there was an element of truth in it.

Why is it that some people today prefer vinyl to digital. I suggest it's the same principal, the quality at source is vital.

All that was based on Linn marketing and not universally accepted. Even less so today when sources have improved greatly. If it works for you and fits into your philosophy, fine.

 

[DuncanS]

Also the humidity would make the air denser in New Orleans would it not? Maybe @kap'n krunch has some real world knowledge and opinions about this, he just moved from Denver to New Orleans, but then the rooms would be much different.

The humidity didn't make me denser in New Orleans I was dense before! On my first ever work trip to the USA in 1995 I got off the plane in New Orleans and walked through the airport thinking 'what were people talking about high humidity here, its fine'. Then left the airport............. and almost dropped with the humidity! I hadn't realised US airports were AC'ed Then it rained heavily, roads flooding, and 5-10 minutes later no visible water and the humidity was even higher, that is when I appreciated AC in cars.

 

[Soundfield]

So there we have it Ron Wagstaff, the collected wisdom of QQ is that in order to upgrade your system you should forget about your server, get some new speakers and move house to somewhere at the correct altitude and humidity! Bet you’re glad you asked now! Welcome aboard by the way (we’re usually more helpful, honestly)!

 

[J. PUPSTER]

He was going for wisdom, don’t forget to spray some air freshener, that usually does it for me.

Speakers for sure!

 

[gene_stl]

Counter intuitively Humidity LESSENS air density , it does not increase it. (100% water vapor is less dense than dry air) Every pilot learns early in ground school the Four Hs of aircraft performance degradation. High(aircraft or airport altitude) , Heavy (aircraft weight) , Hot (temperature of ambient air) and Humid (relative humidity of ambient air). These all reduce the performance of engines, propellers and wings and make you need more runway to take off. (ie higher density altitude calculated compared to standard temp and pressure and zero humidity)

When the air is less dense (Because of being at high altitude, hot or humid) the speed of sound decreases proportionally. This is why sound sounds different with your ears under water. (much higher velocity of sound). You may also demonstrate this by stuffing two helium balloons against your ears and notice weird acoustic lensing effects. (speed of sound LESS through the less dense helium)
I know , too much time on my hands.

density of air

 

[Ron Wagstaff]

So there we have it Ron Wagstaff, the collected wisdom of QQ is that in order to upgrade your system you should forget about your server, get some new speakers and move house to somewhere at the correct altitude and humidity! Bet you’re glad you asked now! Welcome aboard by the way (we’re usually more helpful, honestly)!

That last piece of advice is most concerning. My wife has always wanted to move back to Wales.

 

[HomerJAU]

If you’re going down the music server road then please also consider whether you should go with a dedicated Media Player or media player software with a modern user interface.

The Oppo and other disc players can play many media formats but the UI is horrible and very slow compared to a dedicated media player or media software. You don’t want to navigate up and down file system folders and files. You want a media database that you can search and filter by artist, genre, year, recently added, recently played etc.

These devices/software can allow you to play any music (audio or video) from a touch screen (iPad, iPhone or Android tablet or phone), create playlists in real time to queue up albums or tracks to playback, allow viewing of Album covers, disc images, artist images (slideshow), discography and other metadata such as band members, formation date,/birth date and other information.

Furthermore, you can search, find and queue albums and tracks while playing your music, without interrupting the currently playing song, album or music video.

You need to consider a dedicated media player device or media player software to give you an amazing user experience. I’d ditch any disc based device and get the best experience from all your hard work getting your media on your server. These devices cost less than many disc players too.

 

[Neil Palfreyman]

Room acoustics will, without a doubt, be the single biggest factor affecting your sound quality. After that, probably speaker placement and AVR set-up.

Ron, I suggest you describe your room layout, equipment (in detail - make/model) and any steps you may already have taken to optimise them, and particularly, what you're disappointed in and believe can be improved in your existing set up before spending cash on gear. Expecting a single component to deliver a magic bullet is fraught with risk of disappointment!

You've also told us that your surround music is stored on your NAS. Can I ask what format(s) you keep/play (DSF, FLAC, WAV) what the source(s) are and how you rip it. All of these could have a bearing on sound quality.

The amp you mention at the start of the thread is a very good amp, with a top notch 32 bit EQ and dedicated DSP built into it. If it's set up correctly you should be getting good sound from it!

 

[LuvMyQuad]

If you’re going down the music server road then please also consider whether you should go with a dedicated Media Player or media player software with a modern user interface.

The Oppo and other disc players can play many media formats but the UI is horrible and very slow compared to a dedicated media player or media software. You don’t want to navigate up and down file system folders and files. You want a media database that you can search and filter by artist, genre, year, recently added, recently played etc.

These devices/software can allow you to play any music (audio or video) from a touch screen (iPad, iPhone or Android tablet or phone), create playlists in real time to queue up albums or tracks to playback, allow viewing of Album covers, disc images, artist images (slideshow), discography and other metadata such as band members, formation date,/birth date and other information.

Furthermore, you can search, find and queue albums and tracks while playing your music, without interrupting the currently playing song, album or music video.

You need to consider a dedicated media player device or media player software to give you an amazing user experience. I’d ditch any disc based device and get the best experience from all your hard work getting your media on your server. These devices cost less than many disc players too.

Homer,
The OP already uses a spare windows based laptop running Foobar and an AVR equipped with HDMI . He originally asked about whether upgrading the laptop memory speed and power supply would provide better sound. That turned into a discussion on DACs and turntables.

I thought however, that the last generation of Oppos could be used as a stand alone DAC where a digital stream could be "pushed" to the Oppo from a media player using software like Foobar, Kodi, etc. I dont have this kind of setup and I'm only repeating what I've read (or so i thought). For those who do use this kind of setup, is that correct? Can those Oppos be used as a stand in for a DAC along with media player software, or are you locked into the disc players interface.

 

[Neil Palfreyman]

I thought however, that the last generation of Oppos could be used as a stand alone DAC where a digital stream could be "pushed" to the Oppo from a media player using software like Foobar, Kodi, etc. I dont have this kind of setup and I'm only repeating what I've read (or so i thought). For those who do use this kind of setup, is that correct? Can those Oppos be used as a stand in for a DAC along with media player software, or are you locked into the disc players interface.

You can. I do similar NAS => Oppo =>AVR. You don't even need Foobar or Kodi if you have a NAS; you can browse a music library presented by the NAS from the Oppo home menu. I wouldn't do it on a wireless network for multichannel, though. Mine's wired.

To use the Oppo DACs you need multi-channel analogue inputs on the AVR and you would hence bypass any room correction and/or EQ on the AVR by doing so. I no longer have an AVR with multi channel analogue inputs, so I just use HDMI and Dirac on my Arcam.

[Edit] My Oppo is previous gen. BDP-103.

 

[Ron Wagstaff]

Room acoustics will, without a doubt, be the single biggest factor affecting your sound quality. After that, probably speaker placement and AVR set-up.

Ron, I suggest you describe your room layout, equipment (in detail - make/model) and any steps you may already have taken to optimise them, and particularly, what you're disappointed in and believe can be improved in your existing set up before spending cash on gear. Expecting a single component to deliver a magic bullet is fraught with risk of disappointment!

You've also told us that your surround music is stored on your NAS. Can I ask what format(s) you keep/play (DSF, FLAC, WAV) what the source(s) are and how you rip it. All of these could have a bearing on sound quality.

The amp you mention at the start of the thread is a very good amp, with a top notch 32 bit EQ and dedicated DSP built into it. If it's set up correctly you should be getting good sound from it!

I've just started a new thread seeking advice on speaker choice. Your question on room layout is probably more relevant there.

My music is stored in FLAC files on the NAS at the highest resolution I can extract. I've been using ffmpeg on my PC to rip the files from DVDs. I have one SACD but haven't found a means to extract the tracks from that (or even to play it) and no blueray discs. Fortunately much of the music I like (Prog Rock) comes on DVD.

I originally converted my CD collection to MP3 and now I'm going through the whole lot again converting them to FLAC (using WMP for that) because they sound better.

 

[J. PUPSTER]

You can. I do similar NAS => Oppo =>AVR. You don't even need Foobar or Kodi if you have a NAS; you can browse a music library presented by the NAS from the Oppo home menu. I wouldn't do it on a wireless network for multichannel, though. Mine's wired.

To use the Oppo DACs you need multi-channel analogue inputs on the AVR and you would hence bypass any room correction and/or EQ on the AVR by doing so. I no longer have an AVR with multi channel analogue inputs, so I just use HDMI and Dirac on my Arcam.

[Edit] My Oppo is previous gen. BDP-103.

I’ve done this with my BDP-205, but as Garry said the search and menu performance on my Oppo is very limited. I’ve been meaning to install an NUC or fanless PC on my main system and run maybe J-River or Kodi (not sure I want to deal with all the setup and customizing that KODI requires though?). I would need an AVR that takes HDMI though also, which I currently don’t have either. So yes it takes some good knowledge and planning to get this working right.

 

[LuvMyQuad]

You can. I do similar NAS => Oppo =>AVR. You don't even need Foobar or Kodi if you have a NAS; you can browse a music library presented by the NAS from the Oppo home menu. I wouldn't do it on a wireless network for multichannel, though. Mine's wired.

To use the Oppo DACs you need multi-channel analogue inputs on the AVR and you would hence bypass any room correction and/or EQ on the AVR by doing so. I no longer have an AVR with multi channel analogue inputs, so I just use HDMI and Dirac on my Arcam.

[Edit] My Oppo is previous gen. BDP-103.

I realize you can use Oppo's imbedded navigation system. But the presentation experience of something like Kodi, Foobar, MusicBee, Jriver, is much superior and preferable for most of us. If you havent tried it, i suggest you give it a go. Take a look at Homers Kodi tutorial using the Aeon Nox skin. I'll bet you never go back to that Oppo system again.

The question remains, can you feed the Oppo a continuous digital stream via USB or HDMI and get the decoded analog signal out. Can it work just like a standalone DAC.

 

[LuvMyQuad]

I've just started a new thread seeking advice on speaker choice. Your question on room layout is probably more relevant there.

Nice

My music is stored in FLAC files on the NAS at the highest resolution I can extract. I've been using ffmpeg on my PC to rip the files from DVDs. I have one SACD but haven't found a means to extract the tracks from that (or even to play it) and no blueray discs. Fortunately much of the music I like (Prog Rock) comes on DVD.

I originally converted my CD collection to MP3 and now I'm going through the whole lot again converting them to FLAC (using WMP for that) because they sound better.

Some Points:
There are ways to extract the SACD tracks. Its an active forum subject and requires a particular type of player. But not worth it for one disc. What disk is it?

Im a prog guy too, There is a lot of prog on blueray. Yes, Pineapple Thief, Gentile Giant, Marillion, Steven Wilson, Porcupine tree, King Crimson... the 800 series Sony blueray players are very reasonably priced if you are looking for a disc option, To rip bluerays you'd only need a PC with a blueray reader.

There is also a lot of great prog on SACD. Genesis, RWPL ...