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AP SACDs of Beach Boys Sunflower and Surf's Up are stereo/multichannel with 4.0 mixes

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quadsearcher

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So, to sum up:

- A 4.0 Quad mix was never intended and the stereo mix isn't matrixed for Quad. The Quad portion on the SACD is incorrect and not representative of how the mix should be heard.

- The one and only 2-channel mix was made when monitoring through the Spatializer, to be compatible with standard stereo, but the only way to hear the original virtual-surround-effect would be to play the 2-channel mix through the Spatializer.
That's how I read it too, with the explanation that the encoded version which they heard while mixing did not pass lathe requirements of the time.
 

himey

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That's my understanding.
When I was looking into his device that came free with his book, there really wasn't much to it. Something that simply shifts the phase. Didn't really find too much written about it and it is no longer available.
 

himey

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That's how I read it too, with the explanation that the encoded version which they heard while mixing did not pass lathe requirements of the time.
What do you mean by encoded version? I thaught the matrix was in the master?
 

Cheezmo

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I'm surprised no one has brought up Q-Sound. It sounds like that is very similar to what SD was trying to do. It isn't a "matrix" per se, but using phase, etc. to trick the brain into localizing sounds. Sting (Soul Cages) and Roger Waters (Amused to Death) both used it on major releases. There is no such thing as "matrix decoding" these, that wasn't how they were mastered. They were mastered to create a 3D effect when listing to 2 speakers. While you would probably get something interesting putting these through an matrix decoder of some kind, that is never what was intended. Sound familiar?
 

fizzywiggs41

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So, to sum up:

- A 4.0 Quad mix was never intended and the stereo mix isn't matrixed for Quad. The Quad portion on the SACD is incorrect and not representative of how the mix should be heard.

- The one and only 2-channel mix was made when monitoring through the Spatializer, to be compatible with standard stereo, but the only way to hear the original virtual-surround-effect would be to play the 2-channel mix through the Spatializer.
Not Spatilizer, but 3D virtual surround via an adjustment in the cutting lathe.This for the alleged 4 speaker array required for those 70's recordings.

As much as I have to admire Steven Desper for his engineering skills in sound reproduction, I get the impression it was "OK" back in the 70's for him to tout quad in those recordings via Dynaquad, when it was not.So who's fooling who.

Quadrophonic indicated on album sleeves (The Flame) and album info sheets (Surf's Up).

The Spatilizer device was not created in the 70's but in the early 90's.I have his very info on this device with all the recordings utilizing his device, just as was mentioned in his preamble.
Info inserts, ie Michael Jackson, Bonnie Raitt, The Eagles etc etc being used in their latest recordings,all of the early 90's.
 

bmoura

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I'm surprised no one has brought up Q-Sound. It sounds like that is very similar to what SD was trying to do. It isn't a "matrix" per se, but using phase, etc. to trick the brain into localizing sounds. Sting (Soul Cages) and Roger Waters (Amused to Death) both used it on major releases. There is no such thing as "matrix decoding" these, that wasn't how they were mastered. They were mastered to create a 3D effect when listing to 2 speakers. While you would probably get something interesting putting these through an matrix decoder of some kind, that is never what was intended. Sound familiar?
See message # 120.... :)
 

himey

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Not Spatilizer, but 3D virtual surround via an adjustment in the cutting lathe.This for the alleged 4 speaker array required for those 70's recordings.

As much as I have to admire Steven Desper for his engineering skills in sound reproduction, I get the impression it was "OK" back in the 70's for him to tout quad in those recordings via Dynaquad, when it was not.So who's fooling who.

Quadrophonic indicated on album sleeves (The Flame) and album info sheets (Surf's Up).

The Spatilizer device was not created in the 70's but in the early 90's.I have his very info on this device with all the recordings utilizing his device, just as was mentioned in his preamble.
Info inserts, ie Michael Jackson, Bonnie Raitt, The Eagles etc etc being used in their latest recordings,all of the early 90's.
Do you think the origional process on these two albums masters was intended for two, four, or either speaker setup? Maybe he was touting quad setup as a plan B.
 

LuvMyQuad

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Do you think the origional process on these two albums masters was intended for two, four, or either speaker setup? Maybe he was touting quad setup as a plan B.
What I am getting out of all of this is the original process was intended to be reproduced by two speakers. Which makes one wonder just what is being played out of the rear channels of the 4.0 tracks on these releases.
 

fizzywiggs41

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Do you think the origional process on these two albums masters was intended for two, four, or either speaker setup? Maybe he was touting quad setup as a plan B.
I suppose what I was attempting to convey was that back in the 70's "Desper had a chance to clear the air but chose not to.Instead he rode on the Quadraphonic coattails as it was becoming very popular then, and even went as far as to promote in his discs the quadraphonics encode, via the Dynaquad 4-D (which is a quadraphonic matrix technique-4 speakers !)

I find it very disengenuis that he should blame AP for attempting a quad conversion of Surf's Up , when it was not a Dynaquad encode regardless of the fact that the lp liner notes do so indicate.
Sunflower btw never had any quad indications on the album, only word of mouth via a Billboard article that 2 songs were encoded.

So now FIFTY years later (David Hafler,the inventor of DY-4D,is gone) so it's time to say it was a lathe adjustable 3D sound.Not quad.

Remember Spatilizer it is not, as in the 90's lathe's were not being used with his device.It was all cd's and tape's then.



In my learned opinion, AP is blameless as they were duped.
 

fredblue

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I suppose what I was attempting to convey was that back in the 70's "Desper had a chance to clear the air but chose not to.Instead he rode on the Quadraphonic coattails as it was becoming very popular then, and even went as far as to promote in his discs the quadraphonics encode, via the Dynaquad 4-D (which is a quadraphonic matrix technique-4 speakers !)

I find it very disengenuis that he should blame AP for attempting a quad conversion of Surf's Up , when it was not a Dynaquad encode regardless of the fact that the lp liner notes do so indicate.
Sunflower btw never had any quad indications on the album, only word of mouth via a Billboard article that 2 songs were encoded.

So now FIFTY years later (David Hafler,the inventor of DY-4D,is gone) so it's time to say it was a lathe adjustable 3D sound.Not quad.

Remember Spatilizer it is not, as in the 90's lathe's were not being used with his device.It was all cd's and tape's then.



In my learned opinion, AP is blameless as they were duped.
Blimey.. so he's completely done a 360 (ha! :D ) on it all.. well, ok, 50 years is a long time/plenty of time to have mulled it all over and its his prerogative to have changed his mind in the meantime (is it Quad? is it 3D Stereo? Hmm.. 1971 = Its Quad! Everyone's talking about Quad, its the next big thing!.. 2016 = Of course its Stereo with depth, everyone's digging that Stereo vinyl again, its definitely Stereo - buy it - again - exactly the same as you bought it 50 years ago only twice as thick and heavy vinyl and a gazillion times the price.. though what's in it for him financially? Nothing imagine..! :p ) ..what a sorry state of affairs.. two wrongs don't make a right of course but really all it would have taken was for someone at the label to reach out to Mr.Desper and at the very least asked a couple of basic questions about it, now they've seriously pissed him off.. guess that'll be another nail in the coffin for surround with the label ("ah we don't need the hassle, look what happened in the case of AP Vs. Desper"..!)..
 

fredblue

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Now you know, AP, no well-intended freebies in your future productions!
It is rather extraordinary that a 'bonus' MultiCh presentation, with no fanfare (well, there was no mention at all was there?) should have caused such a ruckus.. and still people go on about how MultiCh/Surround music's so inconsequential.. well look at the shitstorm this has caused..

"Après AP le
[FONT=arial, sans-serif] déluge.."

:nuke
[/FONT]
 

bmoura

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It is rather extraordinary that a 'bonus' MultiCh presentation, with no fanfare (well, there was no mention at all was there?) should have caused such a ruckus.
Shows that sometimes it can be easier to issue a Stereo SACD vs. a Multichannel SACD and avoid the "ruckus"... :)
 

himey

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I suppose what I was attempting to convey was that back in the 70's "Desper had a chance to clear the air but chose not to.Instead he rode on the Quadraphonic coattails as it was becoming very popular then, and even went as far as to promote in his discs the quadraphonics encode, via the Dynaquad 4-D (which is a quadraphonic matrix technique-4 speakers !)

I find it very disengenuis that he should blame AP for attempting a quad conversion of Surf's Up , when it was not a Dynaquad encode regardless of the fact that the lp liner notes do so indicate.
Sunflower btw never had any quad indications on the album, only word of mouth via a Billboard article that 2 songs were encoded.

So now FIFTY years later (David Hafler,the inventor of DY-4D,is gone) so it's time to say it was a lathe adjustable 3D sound.Not quad.

Remember Spatilizer it is not, as in the 90's lathe's were not being used with his device.It was all cd's and tape's then.



In my learned opinion, AP is blameless as they were duped.
So you must not believe Desper today? My point on the plan B was that he never got the releases exactly the way it was designed to be, so the plan B was quad. I understand your point but I don't necessarily believe it as fact. His videos laying out all the artistic decisions, is in his two channel surround, and was posted well before the two SACDs in question. Everything I have seen and heard on the videos (I have only watched Sunflower so far) pertains to two channels and nothing about quad is mentioned. Basically your whole theory is based on a distrust of Desper and I am not anywhere near that camp of thaught.
 

fizzywiggs41

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Shows that sometimes it can be easier to issue a Stereo SACD vs. a Multichannel SACD and avoid the "ruckus"... :)
Regardless, I will still purchase the AP discs.They were duped as was every collector into believing DYNAQUAD quad matrix was utilized.

AP are faultless in this endeavor and I will support their effort to acheive multi-channel 4.0. I applaud their effort.(y)





(Curious as to what the boxes of that master tape states ?):rolleyes:
 

himey

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Regardless, I will still purchase the AP discs.They were duped as was every collector into believing DYNAQUAD quad matrix was utilized.

AP are faultless in this endeavor and I will support their effort to acheive multi-channel 4.0. I applaud their effort.(y)





(Curious as to what the boxes of that master tape states ?):rolleyes:
No gray area in your thinking. Desper is to blame and AP is faultless. Wow.
 

fizzywiggs41

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So you must not believe Desper today? My point on the plan B was that he never got the releases exactly the way it was designed to be, so the plan B was quad. I understand your point but I don't necessarily believe it as fact. His videos laying out all the artistic decisions, is in his two channel surround, and was posted well before the two SACDs in question. Everything I have seen and heard on the videos (I have only watched Sunflower so far) pertains to two channels and nothing about quad is mentioned. Basically your whole theory is based on a distrust of Desper and I am not anywhere near that camp of thaught.

I'm certain "Dennis Wilson's-Quadrophonic Symphony" exists and is Discrete on a 4 track tape, and quite likely Warner archives has "Best of Good Vibrations, again 4 track both were never issued commercially, but the Best of came very close, in mid 70's.


FWIW

I spoke via phone to Steven in the 90's regarding his Spatilizer.I commented on Quad and congratulated him on releasing the very first commercial quad popular record.No mention then that it was stereo 3d.
 

himey

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I'm certain "Dennis Wilson's-Quadrophonic Symphony" exists and is Discrete on a 4 track tape, and quite likely Warner archives has "Best of Good Vibrations, again 4 track both were never issued commercially, but the Best of came very close, in mid 70's.


FWIW

I spoke via phone to Steven in the 90's regarding his Spatilizer.I commented on Quad and congratulated him on releasing the very first commercial quad popular record.No mention then that it was stereo 3d.
His name is spelled Stephen.
 

ar surround

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No gray area in your thinking. Desper is to blame and AP is faultless. Wow.
This whole situation sounds like Finagle's Universal Law #17 which says, If more than one person is responsible for a miscalculation, no one will be at fault. I am actually much more curious about the argument over what we got vs. what should have gotten than the music on either of these albums.
 

JonUrban

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I just noticed that Mr. Stephen Desper has joined the forum and will probably speak to this issue when his membership email clears. I already boosted him to 11 posts so that he can bypass all of the anti-spam stuff so let's end the speculation and wait to hear from the guy who really knows what the deal is.

Welcome to the forum Mr. Desper!
 
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