Apple Joining the Atmos streaming game!

[THX1136]

I didn't take the time to read through all 57 pages, but I recently read an article by Ronan Chris Murphy in Recording Magazine on the way Apple is going about presenting the Atmos mixes that I found interesting. I wanted to link to the article, but it is in the current issue making it unavailable to me.

In a nutshell, Murphy relates that some Atmos mixes are not identified as such and were quite possibly done without the artist's/producer's knowledge/involvement. As such, he argues, the mix may not reflect the original intent of the creators. Another point he makes is if someone is hearing the music for the first time and unknowingly is hearing the Atmos mix, the possibility exists that the listener is hearing something quite different from what the creators intended. A comparison he makes is if Apple had a presentation of classic art and did a 'remix' of the Mona Lisa which presented it in 3D with some additions not in the original, having not identifying it as an 'alternate' version of the original, the viewer could assume the 'variation' is what the artist intended when it would clearly not be so.

His point is he wants to encourage Apple to 'clearly' identify Atmos mixes so the listener knows what version of the music they are listening to. He admits that alternate versions would be interesting, but feels they should always be indentified as such. As a content creator myself, I feel this is a reasonable request to make of Apple - or any provider. Murphy does have a petition up on this topic - https://ronanchrismurphy.com/petition/ - if you are interested. Thanks for reading!

 

[Old Quad Guy]

I’m against the petition, if it starts to kill off Atmos mixes as an unintended consequence.

People signed lousy record contracts and complain years later. They should get their rights back. But that’s not what the petition is about.

Musicians should be more worried about the mastering of their music, rather than the mix.
I do agree that different versions of songs might be identified. But if you’re going to do that, then also let us know about loudness wars mastering as well.

 

[THX1136]

You are correct. The petition is asking Apple to clearly identify Atmos mixes. It does not ask for anything more than that.

 

[J. PUPSTER]

You are correct. The petition is asking Apple to clearly identify Atmos mixes. It does not ask for anything more than that.

I have a hell of a time figuring out what's Atmos on my new ATV4K, I think their UI is a PITA to be blunt.

 

[humprof]

Right: I get how to add an album to my library, or how to add a track to a playlist. But I'd like to create a folder--e.g., "Atmos Classical"--in which I could place all the Atmos classical albums in my collection and organize them by composer (or performer, or whatever). And I'd like to be able to sort by album, not by track, since having to scroll through every track is unwieldy and unnecessary when you want to listen to an entire album. I haven't yet found a way to do that using the Windows web app (or on an Android phone).

Sorted! (And based on my experience with Apple tech support--whose people are working on Labor Day, yet!--I may turn into an Apple convert....)

So here's what I was originally looking for, at a minimum, namely: a PC equivalent of this functionality that seems to be exclusive to Macs:
https://support.apple.com/guide/music/organize-playlists-in-folders-musb6032bb56/mac
And here's the workaround that the clever young man at Apple support gave me (it involves iTunes, a bloatware program that I don't otherwise have any use for): in iTunes, from the Preferences menu, turn on "Sync Library with Apple Music." That makes my Apple Music collection show up in iTunes. Then, in iTunes, I can create folders and subfolders and organize things to my heart's content. And any changes I make are then reflected in Apple Music on the ATV4K.

Since only "Playlists" can be put into a folder, however, I have to turn each album into a playlist before selecting it and dragging it into a folder--which is a bit of a hassle, but fairly straightforward. Apple Music is not perfect, but it's SO much better than Tidal that it's not even worth comparing the two services. Count me a satisfied customer so far.

 

[MagnumX]

I'd be more concerned about "fake Atmos" mixes. In other words, adding spatiality with some automated upmixer just to call it "Atmos" when it's no better than using Neural X with 5.1 or something like that. Not using the artist's involvement or at least permission seems to defeat things altogether too, IMO. While I realize a 3rd party group mixed Yello's Album Point to Atmos perfection, they did so with Yello's express consent and approval and Yello could have asked for adjustments if they didn't like something they did after they heard it. Here, it seems like the record industry is just running full steam ahead to get as many things called "Atmos" as it can regardless of what anybody thinks. I'd rather have less releases done well than more releases that are nothing more than upmixes. The video game industry was almost destroyed in 1983 by too many crappy games on the Atari 2600 giving the impression to many that games just sucked period. More isn't always better.

 

[Toto4Ever]

Hans Zimmer released soundtrack for upcoming movie Dune in Dolby Atmos, sounds absolutely amazing!
https://music.apple.com/us/album/the-dune-sketchbook-music-from-the-soundtrack/1580377303

Just added to my library. Looking forward to listening later today. Thanks.

 

[vegas]

The new album “VisapkāRt” (Immersive) by the Latvian bagpipe and drum music group AULI has been recorded using the newest sound technology – Dolby Atmos.
WOW! Just WOW!
https://music.apple.com/album/visapkārt/1544393781

 

[humprof]

The new album “Vispakārt” (Immersive) by the Latvian bagpipe and drum music group AULI has been recorded using the newest sound technology – Dolby Atmos.
WOW! Just WOW!
https://music.apple.com/album/visapkārt/1544393781

Yes: everyone should check out this album. (If you're imagining some sort of dry, fusty "folk" music, think again.) Props to @Kaspars Barbals!

 

[marpow]

I’m against the petition, if it starts to kill off Atmos mixes as an unintended consequence.

People signed lousy record contracts and complain years later. They should get their rights back. But that’s not what the petition is about.

Musicians should be more worried about the mastering of their music, rather than the mix.
I do agree that different versions of songs might be identified. But if you’re going to do that, then also let us know about loudness wars mastering as well.

Everything you say I couldn't agree more. I find they already clearly mark each song Dolby Atmos, or lossless, etc. Do people need a big logo put on top of the album artwork? And if I must add, would those people even know what it meant?
I watched a You Tube video with Robben Ford and Rick Beato and Robben basically said the same thing, the whole recording industry is in a shambles right now. Too many home studios. He say's I would rather record my music in a studio with an engineer, I don't even have a home studio.

 

[MagnumX]

I’m against the petition, if it starts to kill off Atmos mixes as an unintended consequence.

People signed lousy record contracts and complain years later. They should get their rights back. But that’s not what the petition is about.

Musicians should be more worried about the mastering of their music, rather than the mix.
I do agree that different versions of songs might be identified. But if you’re going to do that, then also let us know about loudness wars mastering as well.

I don't know if other people should be telling musicians what they should be concerned about. Would you want your neighbor picking and changing your child's school curriculum for you (after you already chose it) and then telling you that you should be more worried about what clothes he's wearing to school than what he's studying? We'll take care of that for you (brainwashing included at no extra charge to indoctrinate your child to our belief system).

Personally, I think artists would/should want full control over the end product. If it sounds like crap, they should demand something better or do it themselves. Mixing and mastering isn't some impossible task to learn. It amazes me artists will spend decades honing their musical skills, but can't take a few months to learn how to mix and master their own music.

But what I see here is people who want more Atmos remixes at all costs and don't care what the recording industry does so long as they get it. Some mixes are better than others. This "good enough" (because the Atmos logo lights up on the front panel) is a real problem with movies right now. Many are called Atmos but do less than most 5.1 soundtracks in terms of immersion.

How many are going to "bother" if the record company already did it "for" them. It's done! Another mix would just confuse consumers! So you get an echo box for "Atmos" (It's like they're in concert even though it's a studio album!) instead of artist inspired immersion. Imagine if Yello's Point album just threw some slap echo into the rear channels and called it a day like some Yamaha DSP mode. It's Atmos! The light on your receiver says so! That will be $40 please!

 

[Old Quad Guy]

Perhaps someone can help here.

What bit rate constitutes “Lossless” either in Stereo or Surround? What speed of internet is needed to achieve it?

By lossless streaming are we talking about 24 bit / 96 kHz that compares to a SACD or DVD-A?

Finally, I know this question has been answered, but can one get the 5.1 downmix of Atmos using Apple’s new 4K box on non-Atmos equipment?

Thanks you for your help and understanding.

 

[JediJoker]

What bit rate constitutes “Lossless” either in Stereo or Surround? What speed of internet is needed to achieve it?

By lossless streaming are we talking about 24 bit / 96 kHz that compares to a SACD or DVD-A?

"Lossless" simply means that the file as streamed/downloaded has not been subjected to any lossy encoding, such as MP3 or AAC. It is agnostic of bit depth, sample rate, or file format. Many lossless files/streams may actually be downsampled from higher sample rate sources, but they're still "lossless" because they contain all data available at their bit depth/sample rate. Consider it like the difference between the CD layer and SACD stereo layer of a hybrid SACD with the same mastering: both are lossless, even though one contains more information. The bitrate of a lossless file/stream is highly variable, attributable to differences in bit depth, sample rate, and lossless compression scheme. Nevertheless, most will be in the realm of single-digit megabits per second, an order of magnitude higher than most lossy files/streams, which are in the hundreds of kilobits per second. As long as your download bandwidth is in the tens of megabits per second or higher, you should have no problem streaming lossless audio.

 

[marcb]

Perhaps someone can help here.

What bit rate constitutes “Lossless” either in Stereo or Surround? What speed of internet is needed to achieve it?

By lossless streaming are we talking about 24 bit / 96 kHz that compares to a SACD or DVD-A?

Finally, I know this question has been answered, but can one get the 5.1 downmix of Atmos using Apple’s new 4K box on non-Atmos equipment?

Thanks you for your help and understanding.

Simply put...

Lossless is not a function of the bit rate. It’s a function of whether bits are thrown away or not. MP3 and AAC are lossy algorithms. They throw bits out regardless of the bit rate upon encoding and the bits can’t be recovered. PCM by definition is lossless. FLAC and ALAC are also lossless, but compress the file size and uncompress it on playback with no loss - regardless of depth or bit rate. Think of them as sort of like real time zip files.

A CD encoded with FLAC is lossless 16/44...but even though it is lossless, most don’t consider that high rez. By the same token, a hi-rez 24/192 PCM file encoded to 320mbps MP3 is now lossy 320mbps MPS and is not considered hi-rez by definition. Nor can it ever be converted back to hi-rez; those bits are gone.

I don’t know what internet speed is required right off hand, but it’s not some ridiculous number.

The Apple Music Atmos mixes are streamed at lossless 24/48 PCM (with the Atmos metadata contained within the PCM stream). I think the stereo mixes can be higher (24/96 or higher) but to be honest I haven’t even bothered with them to find out.

Without knowing the particulars of your eqpt, the general answer to your last question is yes, you should be able to get a lossless 24/48 5.1 downmix (of sorts) using an Apple 4K via HDMi to non-Atmos eqpt. I’m set up the same and I get 7.1 24/48 PCM which is then downmixed by my pre-pro to 5.1 (because I only have 5.1 in my speaker set-up in my settings).

EDIT: Ooops, I just noticed someone already answered your “lossless” question. But my last 2 paragraphs might still be helpful.

 

[ted_b]

My question got swallowed up a couple pages ago so I'll ask again:
Can I listen to full Dolby Atmos music (with ATV 4K and a proper pre/pro or AVR of course) without having a tv/projector yet installed? If so, what do I use for searching/GUI?

 

[humprof]

My question got swallowed up a couple pages ago so I'll ask again:
Can I listen to full Dolby Atmos music (with ATV 4K and a proper pre/pro or AVR of course) without having a tv/projector yet installed? If so, what do I use for searching/GUI?

You'll need some sort of monitor connected to your AVR; AFAIK there's no other way to access & control Apple Music from the ATV4K.

It's often easier to search, add items to your library, make & edit playlists, etc. using iTunes (for Windows) or the Apple Music app (Mac, iPhone, or Android). But once you've done all that under-the-hood stuff, you can still only play the music from Apple Music on the ATV4K--at least if you want to hear full-on Atmos.

 

[ted_b]

Right; that's why I asked the question the first time when you guys mentioned using the playlist add functions on the iphone. To actually play I will probably hook up a small monitor (assuming I haven't picked a pj yet). Thx

 

[Cheezmo]

Right; that's why I asked the question the first time when you guys mentioned using the playlist add functions on the iphone. To actually play I will probably hook up a small monitor (assuming I haven't picked a pj yet). Thx

You absolutely can control, choose songs/playlists, etc. from an iPhone or iPad (probably even an Apple Watch). But initial setup I'm sure would require a monitor, and I have no idea how the AppleTV behaves without one connected.

When you open the Airplay section in the Music App on the iPhone there is a choice to "Control Other Speakers & TVs". Select the AppleTV and you can control music playback from your iPhone.

 

[ted_b]

Are you saying Airplay for library management only? Otherwise Airplay will dumb down (assuming it passes Atmos, which I assume you already know or wouldn't be offering) Atmos's 24/48 to, at the best, 16/44, right? That's certainly a temporary idea, but won't suffice long term (and not sure I always want to fire up a projector and pull down screen to listen (only) to Dolby Atmos mixes. I suppose I am only talking Apple Music ones, as my own file-based Atmos mixes should be served by, say, JRiver, easily without a pj attached. Thanks!

 

[Cheezmo]

Are you saying Airplay for library management only? Otherwise Airplay will dumb down (assuming it passes Atmos, which I assume you already know or wouldn't be offering) Atmos's 24/48 to, at the best, 16/44, right? That's certainly a temporary idea, but won't suffice long term (and not sure I always want to fire up a projector and pull down screen to listen (only) to Dolby Atmos mixes. I suppose I am only talking Apple Music ones, as my own file-based Atmos mixes should be served by, say, JRiver, easily without a pj attached. Thanks!

No, not using Airplay, "Controlling Other Speakers & TVs". You are telling the other devices (HomePod/AppleTV) what to play, using your iPhone to navigate the playlists, etc. Airplay is not involved, just what I called the little button you press to bring up the Airplay/Control other Devices choices.

If you think about it, the HomePod is a displayless device just like you are proposing to set up your AppleTV. The only way to control the HomePod is with an iDevice (or Siri, I guess), the same thing works with AppleTVs (in fact you could use Siri with the remote to control the AppleTV, so even more the same).