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Are Gapless Playable 5.1 FLAC Files Possible?

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ghalteman

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Through what playback units are you using? Someone earlier in this thread suggested my "gapping" problem is due to how my Yamaha BD-A1060 Blu-Ray Player processes the FLAC files causing the "gapping" problem. Sent via HDMI to my new Yamaha RX-870 Receiver. Maybe those with Oppo units have better results?
 

HugoPhyrst

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I've been using an Oppo to play 5.1 FLACs for several years. Couldn't get gapless to work until I finally looked it up. A very specific method of selecting the first track, hit options, select gapless. Then all remaining tracks play gapless. Been working great, playing from USB drive attached to Oppo and sent bitstream through HDMI to NAD receiver.

All FLAC files ripped in DVDAE from DVD-A and Blu-ray sources. Cannot play 5.1 directly from my receiver however.
 

ghalteman

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I've been using an Oppo to play 5.1 FLACs for several years. Couldn't get gapless to work until I finally looked it up. A very specific method of selecting the first track, hit options, select gapless. Then all remaining tracks play gapless. Been working great, playing from USB drive attached to Oppo and sent bitstream through HDMI to NAD receiver.

All FLAC files ripped in DVDAE from DVD-A and Blu-ray sources. Cannot play 5.1 directly from my receiver however.
So the Options, Gapless is a setting in your Oppo? Maybe my Yamaha has similar settings.
 

LuvMyQuad

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Through what playback units are you using? Someone earlier in this thread suggested my "gapping" problem is due to how my Yamaha BD-A1060 Blu-Ray Player processes the FLAC files causing the "gapping" problem. Sent via HDMI to my new Yamaha RX-870 Receiver. Maybe those with Oppo units have better results?
I don't use a disk player for playback of FLAC at all. I rip to a NAS and use a media player running Kodi for playback.

When I have tried running the same files from a USB drive into my brothers Sony BRD player, the player inserts gaps. I think non-gapless playback is common with a lot of gear.
 

HugoPhyrst

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I don't use a disk player for playback of FLAC at all. I rip to a NAS and use a media player running Kodi for playback.
That's the way to do it. Haven't gone the way of a NAS yet, but probably will in time. I play full albums at a time, so it's not too much of a hardship despite Oppo Media Player's clunky design.
 

GOS

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Through what playback units are you using? Someone earlier in this thread suggested my "gapping" problem is due to how my Yamaha BD-A1060 Blu-Ray Player processes the FLAC files causing the "gapping" problem. Sent via HDMI to my new Yamaha RX-870 Receiver. Maybe those with Oppo units have better results?
If you're talking to me :) I have all my music on a NAS 8TB standalone drive which I access via my Dell laptop, via Foobar. I do have an Oppo, but I find it more satisfying to play my music using my laptop as it's simply handier.
 

Frogmort

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My Sony BD player will play flac files, but with gaps between each track. I just use my laptop hooked in via HDMI into my receiver with several external hard drives for storage. I use Kodi for all audio/video files, except I use Foobar for SACD ISO playback.
 

jimfisheye

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Screen Shot 2019-02-08 at 11.01.56 AM.png


This is from that JT Aqualung DVDV with the little mastering screwup where the last 3 seconds of the last song (track 11) is split off to make track 12.
Top image is setting DVD Audio Extractor to split chapters to separate dts files.
Bottom image is setting to make a single dts file.

The short dropout and fade up would never be noticed with tracks that start with even only a millisecond of silence. Only with segues. And even this might slip by you if you weren't paying close attention. That's only about 900 samples (at 96k) of dropped out and/or corrupted with a fade up audio. The display ruler set to seconds reads .000 (.001 is 1 millisecond).

You get the same results with any decoder from the dts files. Arcsoft, ffmpeg, even the extra lossy core-only decode with DVD Audio Extractor.
 
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Eclectic

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I can also verify that DTS tracks are converted to FLAC without gaps as well. I used Jethro Tull - A Passion Play to check for sure. Plays back on Kodi at 24/96 with no gaps between segments.
True, but I feel queasy about converting DTS (unless its HD-Master Audio) to flac, as it's a lossy -> lossless conversion. I do understand why some people do it. While it's space-inefficient and misleading, you do get consistency, and it's easer to attach metadata to flac than dts.
 

jimfisheye

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True, but I feel queasy about converting DTS (unless its HD-Master Audio) to flac, as it's a lossy -> lossless conversion. I do understand why some people do it. While it's space-inefficient and misleading, you do get consistency, and it's easer to attach metadata to flac than dts.
First, not true. There are gaps. See above.
Second, while I understand the concern, the thing to do is get over it with this format. Technically, downsampling 192k to 96k is lossy. That term may normally be applied to data compression techniques that are not 1:1 but downsampling is not 1:1 either. There's loss and then there's LOSS. The loss in dts2496 is not mp3 level loss or core-only dts level loss! It just isn't. The treble boost on those Beatles 5.1 remixes for just one example is magnitudes worse that any loss from dts2496. Those were a problem and clearly audible. DTS2496 is transparent with a full decode. Pick your battles. These releases are available in this format and it turns out that any losiness is a very very small factor here. You have to do a null test to even really point it out. Seriously, good luck picking the lossy one out of an A/B test. Go play with the Aqualung LPCM vs dts2496 like I outlined in the thread I wrote about that yourself if you don't believe me. (The quad program mastered to 4.1 is identical in both. This was the only content not damaged in mastering on the LPCM bluray.) The treble damaged master of the 5.1 remix on that LPCM bluray is shockingly more damaged than the dts2496 copy on the DVDV. Clearly audible.

This doesn't mean I support or approve of this lossy format in any way shape or form when it is very much not necessary. The fact that most all hardware disc players only decode the core dts signal as well as many ripping apps like DVD Audio Extractor if completely obnoxious. But pick your battles here. You get full HD sound from well mixed and mastered music. Mastering presentation gone wrong is magnitudes more glaring. There's a software solution for decoding that works. Keep shaking that finger at the record labels using this format by all means but then decode your damn discs and listen to some great Steve Wilson mixes! :)

This will certainly be a PITA for hardware disc player users! You have to basically re-author every dts2496 disc you buy! No way around that. (Another reason to use the computer and media players nowadays but that's another conversation.)
 
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LuvMyQuad

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View attachment 38327

This is from that JT Aqualung DVDV with the little mastering screwup where the last 3 seconds of the last song (track 11) is split off to make track 12.
Top image is setting DVD Audio Extractor to split chapters to separate dts files.
Bottom image is setting to make a single dts file.

The short dropout and fade up would never be noticed with tracks that start with even only a millisecond of silence. Only with segues. And even this might slip by you if you weren't paying close attention. That's only about 900 samples (at 96k) of dropped out and/or corrupted with a fade up audio. The display ruler set to seconds reads .000 (.001 is 1 millisecond).

You get the same results with any decoder from the dts files. Arcsoft, ffmpeg, even the extra lossy core-only decode with DVD Audio Extractor.
I gotta say, if those plots are correct, I have never heard the effect before. I'm going to have to have a closer listen. But I'm still confused. The Aqualung album only has 11 tracks in total, not counting any bonus material. The last two tracks are Locomotive Breath and Wind Up. The first bonus track is Lick Your Fingers clean. And I thought all three of them were separate tracks and should be separated by gaps. But there is no gap shown in your single DTS plot. So what song titles are you actually referring to?
 

Eclectic

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DVD Audio Extractor has supported DTS-HD Master Audio (lossless / "residual stream") since release 7.4.0 (4/2017).
 

jimfisheye

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Yep. Only DTS2496 is the ringer.

I also have to admit that the treble boosted program on that LPCM bluray edition of Aqualung is a lot more noticeably damaged than a core-only decode of the DTS2496 FWIW.
The legacy 16 bit 48k DTS encoders and then any of the lossy Dolby formats are where it gets very noticeably choked and appalling sounding.
 

jimfisheye

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I gotta say, if those plots are correct, I have never heard the effect before. I'm going to have to have a closer listen. But I'm still confused. The Aqualung album only has 11 tracks in total, not counting any bonus material. The last two tracks are Locomotive Breath and Wind Up. The first bonus track is Lick Your Fingers clean. And I thought all three of them were separate tracks and should be separated by gaps. But there is no gap shown in your single DTS plot. So what song titles are you actually referring to?
My set has a track 12 for disc 1 Title 1 (both stereo and surround streams) that is the last 3 seconds of what should end track 11. Did I end up with a special mastering mistake version?
Collectors item! :D
 
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