Atmos Full-Range Discussion

[ted_b]

so it appears there is content in the lower frequencies. so how do i get it reproduced? i'm not aware of any ceiling mounted speakers that go down that far in their response, i don't know of any ceiling subwoofers?

Thanks for finally understanding it.

Why not bass manage your heights and send all crossed over lower frequencies (80, 60, 40 whatever) to a floor sub (it's what I do)? You'll never notice any positional anomalies as its low enough.

 

[fourml8r]

Thanks for finally understanding it.

Why not bass manage your heights and send all crossed over lower frequencies (80, 60, 40 whatever) to a floor sub (it's what I do)? You'll never notice any positional anomalies as its low enough.

welcome back !!!! so it looks like we were both right. there is content there (so yes it is full range), but in most systems (Any set with the recommended THX 80HZ value) it is not being reproduced by the overhead channels (So not full range).

i have my overheads crossed over so my dedicated sub does handle those frequencies. since there is low end content in the overhead channels, why would i not want the overheads to reproduce it ? i'm thinking it would give those channels a bit more "body / punch". i know most people complain that they feel the overhead channels get set too low anyway. this would certainly help that.

in my mind i want to try and reproduce exactly what the engineer intended. so i would think i want as much content as possible to be sent to them for reproduction.

 

[himey]

welcome back !!!! so it looks like we were both right. there is content there (so yes it is full range), but in most systems (Any set with the recommended THX 80HZ value) it is not being reproduced by the overhead channels (So not full range).

i have my overheads crossed over so my dedicated sub does handle those frequencies. since there is low end content in the overhead channels, why would i not want the overheads to reproduce it ? i'm thinking it would give those channels a bit more "body / punch". i know most people complain that they feel the overhead channels get set too low anyway. this would certainly help that.

in my mind i want to try and reproduce exactly what the engineer intended. so i would think i want as much content as possible to be sent to them for reproduction.

Damn, that was a quick 180. Some of us were trying to get you to understand. Large speakers for every channel should always be the goal, even knowing it can't always be realized. Bass management is a necessary evil for music reproduction. Bass management and sub crawling serves home theatres and should be avoided as much as possible for music.

 

[fourml8r]

Damn, that was a quick 180. Some of us were trying to get you to understand. Large speakers for every channel should always be the goal, even knowing it can't always be realized. Bass management is a necessary evil for music reproduction. Bass management and sub crawling serves home theatres and should be avoided as much as possible for music.

i get the concept but the execution seems really messed up if you can't easily apply that in the real world.

 

[AYanguas]

I think both views are right, but in my opinion the confusion comes from not using proper words and descriptions.

I understand it as follows:

Dolby Atmos technology has full bandwith in all its bed channels and objects. This means that a mixer engineer *can* put full bandwith signal in all channels/objects.
Perhaps the LFE channel would be an exception, but I have seen mixes that the LFE was not low-filtered and contained also high frequencies. (Pls, dont ask me what, I dont remember).

Then the customer has its own set of speakers. Some are good (let's call it full bandwith, because they can go to low frequencies), And some other are small speakers that do not go so low.
That has nothing to do with Dolby Atmos.
Then the SUBwoofers and Crossover was invented for AVRs and processors to be able to use "Cheap" speakers with a big "SUB" and have a decent quality of sound.

The recommended crossover of 80 Hz (THX or whoever) is just an indication that about that frecuency the human hearing begin to NOT perceive the location of the sound. So if we crossover at 80 Hz or less, we will have the less possibilities of perceive location of the Low frequency sound.

The setup of a single SUB, or better several SUB's is complicated and has the help of automated Room correction software because of the problems that appear with the stationary waves and peaks/valleys of low freq sound around the room.

So, a room would be better EQ (without stationary peaks/valleys), when there is NO SUB, no Crossover and all speakers are configured as "LARGE" in the AVR. I can confirm this, as I have recently the SUB broken and have reconfigured every speaker as LARGE, without SUB. And you know what? The whole room is more EQ and I dont find the peaks/valleys with 'boom' sound that I had before when walking around the room. My only doubt was the In-ceiling Top Atmos speakers that are not bad and Audyssey was putting the crossover at 60 Hz.
I finally set up the Tops as "SMALL" and get all the crossover bass management output by both the Fronts and Side Surrounds. So as If I have four SUBwoofers, that enable a more EQ SUB in the room.

OK.

But all this is about the quality of the speakers, the SUB/crossover settings and the better or worse EQ room correction. Nothing to do with Dolby Atmos.

Then it Comes Dolby Atmos. What content we usually find in the height channels? .... The content that the mixer/mastering engineer have decided to put in them.
Some Atmos mixes will have more low freq. content and some others less in the heights. And even some poor Atmos mixes (for me) does not have content at all in the heights.

It happens that *Usually" there is few low content in heights, because the mix is poor or because the mix is oriented or crafted for the 'majority' of people that will not have a good big bookshelf speaker hanged from the ceiling. That's all. But The Dolby Atmos technology (the origin of discussion) DOES PERMIT to put Full Bandwith signals in all its Bed Channels and Objects.

 

[ted_b]

welcome back !!!! so it looks like we were both right. there is content there (so yes it is full range), but in most systems (Any set with the recommended THX 80HZ value) it is not being reproduced by the overhead channels (So not full range).

Ummm, no! I never said you wouldn't use bass management up there; I simply said you were spreading misinformation about Dolby Atmos height specs being technically not full range. Of course mixers aren't flooding the heights with lfe or deep bass info...but there's nothing in the spec that says they can't, and in my simple example (Mission Impossible: Fallout helicopter chase) and Chris's examples (Morten's Magnificat or Rush Moving Pictures) there is significant heft up there.

But by all means do not put towers on your ceiling! I'm investing in Aerial 5Ts for my front and rear heights as I soon realized, once my room was finished, that the good-but-not-bed-matched SVS Prime Elevations were not going to cut it, long-term, with immersive music, as the ceiling area's needs are much more musical and important than I originally expected. I needed timbre-matching to my bed, so I am investing. But even the 5Ts will be crossed at, likely, 60hz. And they will be positioned more for Auro-3D playback (i.e 30 and about 140) than Atmos, but the compromise will work fine (especially if I end up putting a pair of the SVS's at the top middles if the hole is too big for Atmos flyovers).

 

[TwoMuch]

do you have any recommendations for an overhead speaker that goes that low and can still be overhead mounted?

Currently, I am using four Sonance VP82R in my ceiling and get pretty good bass response from them. I did build 1.75 Cubic ft. enclosures for them, following the guide line from Sonance manuals. I don't care what any manufacturer says about in ceiling or in wall free air speakers, to get decent bass response you need some sort of enclosure.

 

[riskylogic]

"Full range" means nothing if you don't have a specification around it.


When you do your initial calibration you will see most ceiling settings go to small with a sloped cutoff at 80Hz.

This is the point. If the mixer puts sub 80Hz anywhere but in front then they screwed up. That's why bass and drums are usually put up front.

 

[riskylogic]

So tiny speakers are fine for every channel too because the source isn't 20-20?

80 Hz isn't tiny; but it's not large either.

 

[AudiophileStyle]

If the mixer puts sub 80Hz anywhere but in front then they screwed up. That's why bass and drums are usually put up front.

With all due respect, I disagree wholeheartedly. On 2L’s Magnificat, Magne H. Draagen's 32-foot organ is behind the listening position because that’s where it is in Nidaros Cathedral. The deep bass emanates from the back and washes over the listener.

I also hope creators use their imaginations to put whatever sounds they wish, in any location that feels right. The technology and installation considerations can adapt to the content, for once in our lives. It has always been reversed, but immersive audio frees creators up from previous boundaries.

 

[Mcallister]

With all due respect, I disagree wholeheartedly. On 2L’s Magnificat, Magne H. Draagen's 32-foot organ is behind the listening position because that’s where it is in Nidaros Cathedral. The deep bass emanates from the back and washes over the listener.

I also hope creators use their imaginations to put whatever sounds they wish, in any location that feels right. The technology and installation considerations can adapt to the content, for once in our lives. It has always been reversed, but immersive audio frees creators up from previous boundaries.

Agreed

 

[riskylogic]

With all due respect, I disagree wholeheartedly. On 2L’s Magnificat, Magne H. Draagen's 32-foot organ is behind the listening position because that’s where it is in Nidaros Cathedral. The deep bass emanates from the back and washes over the listener.

I also hope creators use their imaginations to put whatever sounds they wish, in any location that feels right. The technology and installation considerations can adapt to the content, for once in our lives. It has always been reversed, but immersive audio frees creators up from previous boundaries.

That's not an Atmos mix. The specs for Atmos are 80Hz for all the surrounds. It would be silly to put out an Atmos mix of Magnificat for that reason.

Dolby Digital specified a bottom end of 100Hz. DTD lowered it to 80, and Atmos followed suit. One of the reasons for that is that it conserves the number of bits needed for a digital representation.

OTOH, I know that 70's quad mixes were intended for four full range speakers. I make do with rear speakers that bottom at 60Hz, but I realize that on some occasions (including Magnificat apparently) that's not enough.

 

[TheGreatRamseythe2nd]

do you have any recommendations for an overhead speaker that goes that low and can still be overhead mounted?

What are your others?

 

[himey]

That's not an Atmos mix. The specs for Atmos are 80Hz for all the surrounds. It would be silly to put out an Atmos mix of Magnificat for that reason.

Dolby Digital specified a bottom end of 100Hz. DTD lowered it to 80, and Atmos followed suit. One of the reasons for that is that it conserves the number of bits needed for a digital representation.

OTOH, I know that 70's quad mixes were intended for four full range speakers. I make do with rear speakers that bottom at 60Hz, but I realize that on some occasions (including Magnificat apparently) that's not enough.

https://www.avsforum.com/threads/atmos-heights-how-deep-is-the-bass.3035958/

 

[AudiophileStyle]

That's not an Atmos mix. The specs for Atmos are 80Hz for all the surrounds. It would be silly to put out an Atmos mix of Magnificat for that reason.

Dolby Digital specified a bottom end of 100Hz. DTD lowered it to 80, and Atmos followed suit. One of the reasons for that is that it conserves the number of bits needed for a digital representation.

OTOH, I know that 70's quad mixes were intended for four full range speakers. I make do with rear speakers that bottom at 60Hz, but I realize that on some occasions (including Magnificat apparently) that's not enough.

100% Atmos mix. Available for purchase in several formats.

https://shop.2l.no/en-us/products/magnificat-nidarosdomen?variant=41635785343159

 

[AudiophileStyle]

I believe people are mixing up specifications and minimum requirements and other items. For example, this is an Atmos spec, but MINIMUM requirement.


4.6 SurroundSoundFrequencyResponse:40Hzto16kHz,+3/–6dB
Dolby Atmos auditoriums must support playback of full-range surround signals. To meet this specification standard, cinema surround loudspeakers with limited bass response require bass management. If bass management is used, the surround loudspeakers frequency response (±3 dB) must extend to 90 Hz or lower. The crossover frequency should be set based on the capabilities of the surround loudspeakers, but must not be higher than 100 Hz.

 

[AudiophileStyle]

Here are some Dolby Atmos studio guidelines for creators.

 

[riskylogic]

100% Atmos mix. Available for purchase in several formats.

https://shop.2l.no/en-us/products/magnificat-nidarosdomen?variant=41635785343159

I may have to get that, but I'm still thinking the 5.1 96KHz versions will be fine and dandy for my playback systems.

 

[ted_b]

The specs for Atmos are 80Hz for all the surrounds. It would be silly to put out an Atmos mix of Magnificat for that reason.

Please (mods, I'm being nice ) stop the misinformation. The specs for Dolby Atmos are all full-range (and we've documented it here several times). The recommendation for home bass management is to use 80hz as a crossover if your speakers are not full-range. BIG distinction that needs to be understood.

I'll tell Morten and his numerous Grammies and Gramophones that his Atmos mixes are silly.

 

[AudiophileStyle]

I may have to get that, but I'm still thinking the 5.1 96KHz versions will be fine and dandy for my playback systems.

Everything Morten does is fine and dandy. I’m sure the 5.1 will satisfy.