Atmos Full-Range Discussion

[riskylogic]

The loudness wars started way way way before earbuds. It goes back to at least the 60’s if not earlier. Artists and producers always wanted their records to be louder than the competition.

The loudness wars went “ nuclear” in the later 80’s and 90’s with the advent of digital audio and very powerful digital limiters. The mass use of earbuds came later, and yes loud masterings are more easily heard and enjoyed by earbud listeners ( vs more detailed and dynamic recordings) because your average earbuds are hardly audiophile quality and they are used on the go, and often in very noisy environments.

Similarly, listening to music in the car is another historical technological development. If I have a seriously brickwalled recording that I really like otherwise (Lord Huron - Vide Noir would be my prime example) then I only listen to it in the car.

 

[gene_stl]

The first I ever heard about brickwalling and the loudness wars was in the context of FM radio, producers wanting their tracks to sound good (ie louder) on the FM stations. Getting to be a pretty long time ago. A cars higher noise floor probably helps mitigate it.

 

[boxhead]

The first I ever heard about brickwalling and the loudness wars was in the context of FM radio, producers wanting their tracks to sound good (ie louder) on the FM stations. Getting to be a pretty long time ago. A cars higher noise floor probably helps mitigate it.

That's how I remember it as well. In Australia, about 1980 I was listening to a brand new station 2JJJ when they played 10CC's 'I'm Mandy Fly me' which on the vinyl was reasonably dynamic. On FM it was squished beyond recognition.

 

[mandrix]

Hi,
I’m new here and well, this has been one hell of a read, I took 3 days to read this thread, and I enjoy it. I see my ego engage many times, take a step back, breath, laugh, etc.

Carl Jung said something like “believing and knowing are two different things” (states of mind).

Reading some comments it’s clear they are beliefs, not scientific knowings.

Here are sone of my beliefs and knowings to contribute to this passionate conversation:

Knowing: ATMOS is spelt all caps.

Knowing: I’m a jerk and like making cheeky comments but they from my heart.

Belief: Dolby ATMOS front wide sbd height speakers are not full 24bit/ 96k because an Academy award winning sound engineer said on Audioholics he doesn’t use the front wide object base speakers as not to “lower the resolution” on the 7 speakers on the deck. I don’t have first hand experience to know, so that’s why it’s s belief.

Knowing: I’ve hade 5 channel SACD setups in many countries since 90s and have always tried to have 5 equal sized speakers after I went to Abby Road and heard Groove Amanda’s ‘Goodbye Country / Hello Nightclub” SACD played by the mix engineer on 5x B&W 800’s, each with a 15” woofer. I know from Q&A that he mixed bass down low in each channel because I saw it on the panel and then heard it in his hone played on SACD on the same speakers. He was using Chord amps at home. Having full range speakers reduced pushing the low channel frequencies to the sub. Feeling sub is different than hearing it. French church organs are an example of this.
- My profile pic is of the this SACD because it was a monumental shift to both SACD and was the “first SACD” to be created / composed by Groove Amanda sbc the engineers as 5.1, and at the completion wax down mixed to 2 channel CD.
- Who knew that?

Knowing: IMAX engineers said on Audioholics said that IMAX enhanced speakers are designed to play down to subwoofer frequencies. In IMAX cinemas there are no dedicated subwoofer channels in the recordings, all channels have deep base.

Knowing: My 7 Polk Audio IMAX enhanced speakers are all capable of playing down to 40hz and lower, but not at high enough volumes, so I use an additional 4 subs to play below 40hz and remove standing waves.

Knowing: most class D amps have low current abd can’t drive large of medium woofers as well as a lower powered A/B. I had a NAD M28 for 20 months and my NAD 777v3 receiver and Emotiva 7v3 run rings around the M28s bass. I also demoed a M10v2 a few week ago with the Ncore chip and same thing, However I have not heard the Purify 7040 chip for deep full range listening.

Belief: 5 or 7 timbre matched speakers playing a full range is essential for ATMOS tracks where some engineers mix lead vocals and mid-bass in the rear and/or sides.

Belief: in the future ATMOS mixes on heights and ceilings will go full range. Remember Dolby pro-logic where the two rear channels were encoded in the main channels and were low resolution? Then DTS-EX were encoded 6&7 channels in the 5 channel mix. We have been here several times before.

I suggest we get curious:
1. what are the technical specifications for encoding ATMOS, IMAX Enhanced, or DTS:X music?

2. will running Dirac reduce a 24/96k track down to 24/48k

3. What are the advantage of stacking subs 6ft tall and ceiling subs vs single height floor subs?

That’s my 2 cents worth.

Wozza

lol. For some strange reason I was reading back through this thread and gave your post another look to see how full of.. I mean what you were trying to say.

2. will running Dirac reduce a 24/96k track down to 24/48k

You're indeed a funny guy!

 

[WozzaDog]

lol. For some strange reason I was reading back through this thread and gave your post another look to see how full of.. I mean what you were trying to say.

2. will running Dirac reduce a 24/96k track down to 24/48k

You're indeed a funny guy!

I really try to be funny. I once posted a hotel spa review in Changmai that blew up and had 3,500 likes over night that had people falling out of their chairs and the hotel chain GM for Thailand book a flight from Bangkok to Changmai to meet me and buy me dinner because everyone found it so funny.

The ego is a funny thing.

And yes it appears Dirac does reduce 24/96 down to 48k on many if not all devices. Shocking hey.

 

[WozzaDog]

I really try to be funny. I once posted a hotel spa review in Changmai that blew up and had 3,500 likes over night that had people falling out of their chairs and the hotel chain GM for Thailand book a flight from Bangkok to Changmai to meet me and buy me dinner because everyone found it so funny.

The ego is a funny thing.

And yes it appears Dirac does reduce 24/96 down to 48k on many if not all devices. Shocking hey.

Apparently this is one of Apples justifications for not going beyond 48k is Dirac cuts off at 48k

 

[mandrix]

Apparently this is one of Apples justifications for not going beyond 48k is Dirac cuts off at 48k

Dirac, or Dirac Live as it's implemented in my AVR, is a program for speaker setup.
Could you please explain to me how/why it is somehow forcing my AVR to convert anything higher than 48K to a lower sample rate and how you have measured this?

 

[johnbs]

Dirac, or Dirac Live as it's implemented in my AVR, is a program for speaker setup.
Could you please explain to me how/why it is somehow forcing my AVR to convert anything higher than 48K to a lower sample rate and how you have measured this?

As explained here, some Dirac licenses use 48K

https://support.minidsp.com/support...understanding-the-various-dirac-live-versions

 

[mandrix]

As explained here, some Dirac licenses use 48K

https://support.minidsp.com/support...understanding-the-various-dirac-live-versions

Interesting. Not sure it makes much difference in the long run. (But) I stand corrected.

 

[mandrix]

Interesting. Not sure it makes much difference in the long run. (But) I stand corrected.

I wonder if the DSP's aren't already running at 48K. Hmm more stuff to flesh out.

 

[Sal1950]

Interesting. Not sure it makes much difference in the long run. (But) I stand corrected.

Nothing audible having to do with the resampling.
Of course any claim of folks hearing such can be laid directly at the feet Dirac or Audyssey being active in the device or not. That's exactly what those 2 DRC apps are supposed to do,
change the freqrency responce of the supplied signal.

 

[ssully]

Dirac, or Dirac Live as it's implemented in my AVR, is a program for speaker setup.
Could you please explain to me how/why it is somehow forcing my AVR to convert anything higher than 48K to a lower sample rate and how you have measured this?

It's not unusual. Audyssey runs at 48K too. Unlike many audiophiles, the folks who design these things understand psychoacoustics, and what humans can and cannot hear.

 

[Sal1950]

It's not unusual. Audyssey runs at 48K too. Unlike many audiophiles, the folks who design these things understand psychoacoustics, and what humans can and cannot hear.

100% true, both DRC programs were designed to run at 48k. So if the incoming source material is at any other speed, the AVR's DAC first resamples it to 48k. This is also true of a 44k CD stream or a mp3 stream, it is first resampled to 48k if the DRC program is active.
This resampling itself should in no way be audible.

 

[CINERAMAX]

I have thrown hundreds of thousands at this question, a small percentage of movies are full blown explosive overhead into the 38hz region, the few home cinemas I design take advantage of this. I call it: Dropping the Hippopotamus.

If you can hang them the active mid field Lyd-48 Dynaudio Monitors are the greatest speakers at any price for concussive Topsmmersion, not that expensive either; key operating word: MIDFIELD it has the throw to hit you with a 40hz bowling ball. Timbre-matching overheads is about 85% as important to timbre matching the surrounds to mains, these speakers are timbre matched at ear level , but in situ up top they sound slightly different because of the way humans perceive sound directions. If you you own domed based tweeter mains, and are considering buying tops, look into these.

I wish our revered Atmos Music Mixers would rip those baby genelec plastic toys from the ceilings and replace them with these. We are being short changed by ill advised studio designs.

 

[WozzaDog]

Dirac, or Dirac Live as it's implemented in my AVR, is a program for speaker setup.
Could you please explain to me how/why it is somehow forcing my AVR to convert anything higher than 48K to a lower sample rate and how you have measured this?

I heard it said on a Youtube that the CPUs within processors do not have the bandwidth to run 24/96 or 24/192. The person who said it was from Audyssey on a call with DM holdings that their processor could process all signals at all times and had to drop processing room correction on some data if the CPU was too busy. The music wasn't dropped, just didn't apply room correction to the music. Phil from DM holdings was doing some damage control because it didnt reflect well and at that point the Audyssey person said that Dirac and their Dirac Live product instead reduces the bandwidth down to 48k so it can process the data.

It will be interesting how these new Dirac Art systems (which sounds like Anthem ART) will perform as they require even more processing. Maybe the hardware processor specifications requirements are higher.

I spoke at length with Anthem last year and they advise me that their CPUs were spec'd to run their Anthem Arc (not Dirac Art) at full bandwidth.

At the end of the day with Atmos on an 8k system and DSD supported by Roon at DSD512, what size CPU do we need to process at full bandwidth?

Of course higher CPUs have higher costs. Maybe we need PCs with input / output cards like Trinov uses. Dirac Live is licensable for PCs. Emotiva's next gen processors will be running a Linux OS, it will be interesting to see what CPUs will be used. Will it be an AMD CPU/GPU combo?

 

[WozzaDog]

I have thrown hundreds of thousands at this question, a small percentage of movies are full blown explosive overhead into the 38hz region, the few home cinemas I design take advantage of this. I call it: Dropping the Hippopotamus.
View attachment 90574
If you can hang them the active mid field Lyd-48 Dynaudio Monitors are the greatest speakers at any price for concussive Topsmmersion, not that expensive either; key operating word: MIDFIELD it has the throw to hit you with a 40hz bowling ball. Timbre-matching overheads is about 85% as important to timbre matching the surrounds to mains, these speakers are timbre matched at ear level , but in situ up top they sound slightly different because of the way humans perceive sound directions. If you you own domed based tweeter mains, and are considering buying tops, look into these.
View attachment 90573

I wish our revered Atmos Music Mixers would rip those baby genelec plastic toys from the ceilings and replace them with these. We are being short changed by ill advised studio designs.

Thank you for sharing these pics and your professional experience, its really helpful. I just implemented Polk R900 to timber match my Legend floor speakers but I wish they had bigger drivers. Whats more is Polk still dont have timbre matched ceiling speakers almost 3 years after the release. Instead Im using wall Atmos speakers on the ceiling.

Would I be better of mounting a bookshelf with larger drivers like the L200 vs the R900 I installed?

Could you do an article / post on Atmos speakers and your wisdom to help us learn more. Forgive me, Im not one for trolling but I will go back and see other posts you have written as well.

 

[CINERAMAX]

Thank you for sharing these pics and your professional experience, its really helpful. I just implemented Polk R900 to timber match my Legend floor speakers but I wish they had bigger drivers. Whats more is Polk still dont have timbre matched ceiling speakers almost 3 years after the release. Instead Im using wall Atmos speakers on the ceiling.

Would I be better of mounting a bookshelf with larger drivers like the L200 vs the R900 I installed?

Could you do an article / post on Atmos speakers and your wisdom to help us learn more. Forgive me, Im not one for trolling but I will go back and see other posts you have written as well.

you can rummage around my website, I blew up so many 5 and 6 inch woofers till I found the Lyd-48, there are also posts https://www.avsforum.com/threads/th...love-should-not-offend.2913246/#post-54658096under avsforum, though banned there for thinking a bit different. Home Atmos guidelines say space the speakers at a side to side asymuth of 45, I recommend the cinema atmos spacing, its a tighter 30 degree to 35 basically line up in between the center channel and the mains.

 

[Sal1950]

I blew up so many 5 and 6 inch woofers till I found the Lyd-48, there are also posts https://www.avsforum.com/threads/th...love-should-not-offend.2913246/#post-54658096under avsforum, though banned there for thinking a bit different.

The big variable is the size of your room and the desired SPLs.

 

[CINERAMAX]

I has Adam Pelz over he is a trainer for the Home Theater Alliance at CEDIA, he jumped in ce3rtain segments in my small living room 20 x 13 wide setup screen on long wall).

 

[WozzaDog]

you can rummage around my website, I blew up so many 5 and 6 inch woofers till I found the Lyd-48, there are also posts https://www.avsforum.com/threads/th...love-should-not-offend.2913246/#post-54658096under avsforum, though banned there for thinking a bit different. Home Atmos guidelines say space the speakers at a side to side asymuth of 45, I recommend the cinema atmos spacing, its a tighter 30 degree to 35 basically line up in between the center channel and the mains.

Thank you. My Polk L800s with SDA technology are at an azimuth of 30-35, and I put the heights above them in line as per the Dolby guide. The L800 also has a second toed outer facing tweeter and mid bass driver as well.

What’s your preferred height angle? I went 35 on a slopped roof should I add 6 heights later