Auto Room Tune - Yes/No?

[kfbkfb]

My Pioneer VSX-534 has an automatic room tune feature (the first receiver I've owned with this).

It seems to me that, although the tuning would (most likely) improve accuracy (smoother frequency response), it also restricts the listening location to one small "sweet spot".

My Pioneer VSX-D209/Polk T15/PSW108 setup in my basement (I listen to everything w/DPL on) provides amazing imaging on some content without any room tuning (receiver doesn't offer it).

Opinions about auto room tuning?


Kirk Bayne

 

[Jim the Oldbie]

I think this one might be kind of hard to nail down because of all the different brands of auto room correction (and versions of each) in use out there.

The only one I've ever tried is Dirac (v2 I think). I messed around with it quite a bit before losing patience and removing it. I just couldn't get close to the sound I was already enjoying very much without it. But before this, I had spent many, many hours carefully measuring both my speakers (quasi-anechoic testing in a large space) and my listening room, and judiciously applying only driver correction to mids & highs, and room correction for the bass, combined with an overall "room curve" based on lots of subjective evaluation over a period of months. (Actually, I'm still making minor tweaks to that curve several years later, though they're much fewer & further between these days.)

Compared to all that, Dirac was definitely a whole lot quicker & easier, and would likely have been better than nothing if I'd spent more time with it. And I haven't given up on it completely; I intend to try some Dirac-equipped hardware in my car soon.

That's all I got; others here have probably had more experience. A potentially interesting topic for sure.

 

[~dave~~wave~]

On my Yamaha AVR it helps balance levels and EQ among mis-matched front, center & rear speakers.
I listen all around the room, do not feel "restricted" to the sweet spot.

Not difficult to turn off and on for comparison.
What do you have to lose by experimenting with it?

 

[wrat]

It seems to me that, although the tuning would (most likely) improve accuracy (smoother frequency response), it also restricts the listening location to one small "sweet spot".

.

Opinions about auto room tuning?


Kirk Bayne

If it only has options to measure from a single spot that MAY be true, most however have the option for many placement measurements , your room is the second greatest overall contributor to the sound you hear

 

[Mcallister]

unless You are listening in a room with no walls I’d use it. Even heavily treated room Can use some room correction.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

Opinions about auto room tuning?

Sure. There are many such operations and they vary widely. Some are poor, most are somewhat useful and a few are very useful. Unfortunately, they also vary in ease of use and in cost. Applying a general assessment to them all is not possible.

 

[Soundfield]

Ah, the joys of unnecessary automation. I am reminded of the Nutrimatic vending machine in the Hitchhiker’s Guide ….


Nutrimatic

 

[jimfisheye]

My Pioneer VSX-534 has an automatic room tune feature (the first receiver I've owned with this).

It seems to me that, although the tuning would (most likely) improve accuracy (smoother frequency response), it also restricts the listening location to one small "sweet spot".

My Pioneer VSX-D209/Polk T15/PSW108 setup in my basement (I listen to everything w/DPL on) provides amazing imaging on some content without any room tuning (receiver doesn't offer it).

Opinions about auto room tuning?


Kirk Bayne

Try to "tune" your room/system passively instead.

You can play with the speaker distances from walls and corners while keeping the array properly aligned (ie correct angles and distances to listening position). This will go a LOT further than brute force eq fixes! Putting a speaker at the wrong distance and using a delay to "correct" it is REALLY something to avoid. This kind of stuff can limit you to a small sweet spot or nothing!

Simple bass traps behind the front main speakers can cure wild live room tones and bass standing wave issues better than any processing. Crudely throwing a couple old beanbags behind the front mains works in a pinch.

Try any and all passive measures before grabbing the DSP!

 

[PK]

You can play with the speaker distances from walls and corners while keeping the array properly aligned (ie correct angles and distances to listening position). This will go a LOT further than brute force eq fixes! Putting a speaker at the wrong distance and using a delay to "correct" it is REALLY something to avoid. This kind of stuff can limit you to a small sweet spot or nothing!

I'm aware of angles but not distance...what is the correct distance? Or a link to some info...Thanks, PK

 

[kfbkfb]

Certainly, external software can be much more powerful than (in receiver) auto room tune systems.

Speakers have a number of serious inaccuracies (frequency response errors that depend on listener location, phase response errors, dynamic distortion errors come to mind). The late, great Audio magazine (USA) had many test reports of speakers documenting these errors.

I don't know if the most advanced correction software is able to compensate for these errors (probably not the FR error mentioned above).

In my case, I get used to the "sound" of my speakers and even making small changes with the Bass and Treble controls sounds weird to me.

(I'll probably try auto room tune, mainly to see if there is a small "sweet spot" [seems like there would be, considering how the system works]).


Kirk Bayne

 

[jimfisheye]

I'm aware of angles but not distance...what is the correct distance? Or a link to some info...Thanks, PK

Correct is the speakers all being equal distance to the listening position sweet spot.

I mention this because AVRs often include a delay option in their speaker management feature. They'll tell you in the instructions to simply type in a delay when you place your speakers at unequal distances from the listening position. As though this is simply OK and a normal procedure. This is very much not OK and not a normal procedure! It WOULD work as a workaround for the sweet spot listening position of course. But ONLY for that sweet spot. Anywhere else in the room and now the unequal distances + delay offset for the sweet spot will exaggerate the timing offset.

At the end of the day, do whatever it takes to dial in your gear. If it sounds right, it is right.
Just saying that passive placement and treatment goes a long way and sometimes processing is the blunt force hard way.

It's funny, right? I'll fuss over moving things around in the studio and being "proper" with setup. Live? I won't even show up if I don't have graphic eqs for every mix channel sent to a live monitor or main! However, you do notice that the nicer live rooms ARE in fact treated and dialed in passively.

 

[PK]

Correct is the speakers all being equal distance to the listening position sweet spot.

I mention this because AVRs often include a delay option in their speaker management feature. They'll tell you in the instructions to simply type in a delay when you place your speakers at unequal distances from the listening position. As though this is simply OK and a normal procedure. This is very much not OK and not a normal procedure! It WOULD work as a workaround for the sweet spot listening position of course. But ONLY for that sweet spot. Anywhere else in the room and now the unequal distances + delay offset for the sweet spot will exaggerate the timing offset.

At the end of the day, do whatever it takes to dial in your gear. If it sounds right, it is right.
Just saying that passive placement and treatment goes a long way and sometimes processing is the blunt force hard way.

It's funny, right? I'll fuss over moving things around in the studio and being "proper" with setup. Live? I won't even show up if I don't have graphic eqs for every mix channel sent to a live monitor or main! However, you do notice that the nicer live rooms ARE in fact treated and dialed in passively.

OK, makes sense. Try to achieve the optimal positioning and treatment as the starting point. I'm moving to a new place so it's good to know...Is there an inexpensive tool, maybe a laser, to verify speaker angles to the sweet spot? Thanks

 

[PK]

...Just Googled and got me this...
JBL Launches iOS Apps for Speaker Angle and Placement Optimization - The Broadcast Bridge - Connecting IT to Broadcast
‎SpeakerAngle

 

[jimfisheye]

OK, makes sense. Try to achieve the optimal positioning and treatment as the starting point. I'm moving to a new place so it's good to know...Is there an inexpensive tool, maybe a laser, to verify speaker angles to the sweet spot? Thanks

I've just used a level and tape measure in the past. I've seen the laser thingy app measuring tool for the iphone. One of these days I'll have to see if there's a cheap guy version for android. It's probably already a thing and I just don't know.

 

[PK]

I've just used a level and tape measure in the past. I've seen the laser thingy app measuring tool for the iphone. One of these days I'll have to see if there's a cheap guy version for android. It's probably already a thing and I just don't know.

Genelec Offers SpeakerAngle App for Android & Update For iOS Devices - ProSoundWeb

Not sure if it's still available...looks like it existed in 2012...

 

[bluelightning]

I think whether room correction will help or not depends on the room correction system and the reference/target curve. Over the Christmas break, I setup a new Denon receiver (X4500H) and went through the Audyssey room correction system and initially hated the sound. The receiver/audyssey system uses a flat target curve, which sounded lifeless and way too bright for me. It was only after I downloaded the app and tuned the reference curve to my liking that I started liking it. The Audyssey app is awesome when it works. Another thing I would say is that one should not rely on the microphone that comes with the receiver and instead get the UMIK-1 microphone and work with REW to better understand what the room correction is or isn't doing. I say that once you get down the rabbit hole of room correction you have to fully commit to putting the time and effort to get it right.

 

[hobie1dog]

i've used the Audyssey setup programs for years, but they always leave the bass turned down way too low. So be prepared to go n and turn the bass back up and tune it by ear.

 

[Tornado Red]

I've found with Pioneer's MCACC (and likely one's like Audyssey as well) that they're home theatre receivers and when using room correction the surrounds, though balanced, sound ambient. Just my theory, but I think most of these room correction programs are more designed for movies, and that folks like us need the surrounds cranked higher for surround music. I like the balance MCACC gives me, and just boost the surrounds relative to that setting. Works for me anyway.

 

[marpow]

Nice thread, good to hear others way of doing room correction.
I was really wanting to get into mini DSP and Dirac and after months of You Tubes and reading I came to the conclusion of trusting my ability to set up my own environment to my personal taste. I like a live room.
Hands down, the best thing I have done was spending $2900.00 with GIK room acoustic panels, bass traps and diffusers. They have a good support team and will walk you through it.
Outside of all that it is, tape measure, Radio shack SPL meter, Audessy correction and patience.
The subwoofer manufacturer REL, recommends when you use Audessy to disconnect the subs and then use Audessy. Then reconnect and go from there.
I have come to the conclusion that as good as we can get with all that it is available, recordings that we listen to come at us all over the place and what is nirvana one day becomes "what the heck is going on" the next day.
I am extremely satisfied with my current listening area, but it is in my nature as a gear head to always be fiddling with stuff. I am the only one that is critical to my listening area so a good idea is to bring friends over, when there jaw drops that is good validation for my hard work and obsessive nature.
I have to constantly remind myself to sit and listen and enjoy.

 

[jimfisheye]

I just love digital processing and the digital age in music is happiness and light to me.
There's almost nothing you can't do now.

I still strongly stand behind passive measures before clicking the mouse though!
A tape measure, level and a couple beanbag chairs thrown behind your front mains can deliver results that seemed impossible to dial up.

You might have a sledge hammer that you can bash a hole in a wall with. And it's a really good sledge hammer! It's still worth noticing a door a few feet over and just walking through that instead.
(Best analogy I can do on my first cup of coffee right now.)

And again, some of the DSP features on some consumer AVR products are more intended to be silly play toys than adjustment tools! You know how those 'filters' the kids play with on their phones look? Maybe striking and somewhat hyper realistic at first glance but still obviously not real with actual photo realism in the nuance? The 'eq' features can be crude like that on some of these products. It's not for correction. It's to play with for stylized results.