Auto Room Tune - Yes/No?

[timbre4]

I have to constantly remind myself to sit and listen and enjoy.

That's it right there.
FWIW - The first Denon I had with Audyssey worked really great and resulting levels were spot on. However every successive AVR model I ran this with (2-3 newer models) on 2 different systems (living room and mancave) were WAY off. Results were left rear speaker exponentially louder than all other speakers. Just ordinary rectangular rooms, nothing oddball. Sold the mics on eBay. Since then I trust my ears and smile. I rarely ever change any settings unless source material is whacked up.

 

[PK]

I still strongly stand behind passive measures before clicking the mouse though!
A tape measure, level and a couple beanbag chairs thrown behind your front mains can deliver results that seemed impossible to dial up.

I'm moving to a new place and this might be my first chance to place the speakers closer to spec than before. Previously the room has always severely limited speaker placement. So all the tips are welcome...
OK, so a tape measure for the distance to the listening spot and the distance distance between the mains for an equilateral triangle...I'm old enough to know what a bean bag chair is. And the level? How is that used for speaker placement? Thanks...PK

 

[PK]

I'm diggin' all this as I'll be breaking out four towers and a center that I've had in storage for a few years. Along with a Marantz AVR that's never seen the light of day! Sweet!

 

[Soundfield]

And the level? How is that used for speaker placement?

To make sure you don't move your head!

 

[PK]

I like a live room.
Hands down, the best thing I have done was spending $2900.00 with GIK room acoustic panels, bass traps and diffusers.

I was thinking that the room treatments result in a "dead" room? Meaning less reflective... Guessing this is a relative term? If that's the case, how does one gauge just where your room is in the spectrum of live vs dead? Thanks...PK
https://www.sfu.ca/sonic-studio-webdav/handbook/Dead_Room.html

 

[PK]

To make sure you don't move your head!

Exactly! I'm not sure if it goes on the speaker or if I have to duct tape it to my head

 

[jimfisheye]

And the level? How is that used for speaker placement? Thanks...PK

To level each speaker so it's firing in the same plane. Horizontally that is. That's part of the alignment. You won't get a phantom center (from a stereo pair) without that level of alignment.

The fact that you can keep the alignment, equilateral triangle, and further surround channel angles in proportion while playing with distance from front and rear walls and corners gives you a lot of opportunity.

 

[windhoek]

Speaker placement? Now that's what I call a can of worms!

As well as having a 4.0 speaker setup working across the width of my living room, I've got a stereo setup firing down the length; with the room roughly measuring 4 x 3.25m (roughly 14 x 10'). The speakers firing across the room are Kralk Audio BC-30s (along with another pair working as rear speakers): bass-lite bookshelf speakers designed to be placed very close or mounted on a wall. They're very much in the mould of Linn Kans except they don't have quite as much of a shouty, screamy treble. Great speakers that can boogie all night long!

As for my stereo speakers, well they're Tannoy Eaton Legacy speakers with 10" dual concentric drivers that produce a lot of bass! They literally only sound right in one position in my living room. They're simply too way big to work across the width of the room and because they need so much space to breathe, as it were, they're quite a bit into the room from the three adjacent walls. They sound great so I've just had to accept that if that's how far into the room they need to be then that's just how it needs to be. Fwiw, I figured out their rough positions using the '20% guide' as mentioned in the Dynaudio YouTube video below (skip to 5 minutes to learn about the 20% rule). Until I stumbled across this video I literally spent hours, days and weeks faffing about with my Tannoys to find the right spot for them - if only I'd seen this video years ago lol



Incidentally, I found myself liking the Tannoy house sound so much I've also bought a pair of these Tannoy Prestige Autograph Mini GR speakers, and I'm pleased to say they sound great. A lot easier to integrate into the room than their bigger brothers because they don't 'play the room' half as much, but they still have enough of the Tannoy magic to deliver good times. The Tannoy Minis are probably going to be placed so that they fire across the room; either as a replacement for my Kralk Audio speakers or as alternative speakers with the aid of a switch.

Like I say, speaker placement? Now that's what I call a can of worms!

EDIT: I meant to say that Tannoy suggests experimenting with off-axis speaker placement - essentially having the direct sound cross about 1 foot in front of your head. Or crossing streams, as they say in Ghostbusters

And I would love to hear the Master Set speaker setup but apparently, my room is too small for any difference to be significant. Still, could be worse. I've got some great speakers so no complaints

 

[PK]

To level each speaker so it's firing in the same plane. Horizontally that is. That's part of the alignment. You won't get a phantom center (from a stereo pair) without that level of alignment.

The fact that you can keep the alignment, equilateral triangle, and further surround channel angles in proportion while playing with distance from front and rear walls and corners gives you a lot of opportunity.

So entertain me for a second...I'm going back to the laser idea...what about mounting laser pointers on the speaker and shooting them at a target representing your head in the listening position? Heck, why not a mannequin head mounted on a tripod? I couldn't be the first person to come up with this idea, right? Overkill? $5.00 on Amazon!
For that matter, if you're going to the trouble you might as well establish that the speakers are at the same elevation I would think...
Otherwise there are digital levels. When I hear "level" I think of the old "bubble" type...

 

[jimfisheye]

Yeah, whatever measuring and level telling solutions you prefer.

I know there are smartphone apps that use a laser technique to measure. There are level apps too. Measure again for height.

But I've just always grabbed a tape measure and old fashioned bubble level.

 

[PK]

Shooting lasers at styrofoam heads...now that I thunk it, I gotta try it! At least once to get it out of my system.

 

[Soundfield]

To level each speaker so it's firing in the same plane. Horizontally that is. That's part of the alignment. You won't get a phantom center (from a stereo pair) without that level of alignment.

The fact that you can keep the alignment, equilateral triangle, and further surround channel angles in proportion while playing with distance from front and rear walls and corners gives you a lot of opportunity.

What level of precision is required ?

 

[marpow]

I was thinking that the room treatments result in a "dead" room? Meaning less reflective... Guessing this is a relative term? If that's the case, how does one gauge just where your room is in the spectrum of live vs dead? Thanks...PK
https://www.sfu.ca/sonic-studio-webdav/handbook/Dead_Room.html

PK, first off, I am not as advanced as others, but being you asked.
When I built my room, I was told by someone that I should carpet the floor complete, hide my gear in a designated space, treat walls & ceiling with panels, cover my window with panels, so the end result is chair and speakers. This would be a dead room?
Well, that is not the kind of person I am, so I termed my room a live room.
After hardwood floors where in I put area carpet exposing 3' of hardwood all 4 sides.
I like looking at my rig, so my 3 audio racks, TV on wall and equipment are reflective.
I would never block my window, but do have shades with soft see through linen curtain, not entirely but a weak link in the 4 walls, some might say reflective.
Added two corner bass traps at front, 5 acoustic absorbers side walls, and 4 diffusers back wall.
So, this is why I use the term Live, because I still have reflective surfaces, but is treated just right for ME.
I was told It might be a good idea to add an acoustic panel on ceiling, I have not done that.
I have 3 subs 2 LFE subs diagonally across from each other, corner to corner, and 1 sub that is not LFE connected but speakon cable only directly to center channel speaker at terminals. So my bass nulls in the room are pretty much avoided.
I call this a Live Room?
I really like the way it sounds, we all have to do the best we can with what we have and whatever we do I think it also needs to match our personality, whats good for one is not necessarily the same for others.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

PK, first off, I am not as advanced as others, but being you asked.
When I built my room, I was told by someone that I should carpet the floor complete, hide my gear in a designated space, treat walls & ceiling with panels, cover my window with panels, so the end result is chair and speakers. This would be a dead room?
...........................................................................
I call this a Live Room?
I really like the way it sounds, we all have to do the best we can with what we have and whatever we do I think it also needs to match our personality, whats good for one is not necessarily the same for others.

I would call it neither dead nor (a)live. As is mine, it is an acoustically treated room.

One that is dead (e.g., an anechoic chamber) is not a comfortable place for humans and the sound will not be as imagined and prepared by the performers and studios. OTOH, one that is completely bare and has only hard reflective surfaces is as unsuitable as the dead one but in an entirely different way. Realistically, almost all the accoutrements for human comfort (carpeting, upholstered furniture, shelving for books, records, knick-knacks, etc.) will assure that the room is not totally live.

If one is serious about improving the audio experiences in the room, some additions are useful (as Marpow) has indicated but, note also, they are not all reflective or absorbent (or diffusive) but will perform those tasks at particular frequencies according to structure, size and placement. I can be complex but it need not be.

 

[ar surround]

Simple bass traps behind the front main speakers can cure wild live room tones and bass standing wave issues better than any processing. Crudely throwing a couple old beanbags behind the front mains works in a pinch.

I'm laughing because I have a couple of bean bags behind the fronts, but that's simply where we normally store them. Sometimes "normal" living conditions really do work out.

 

[PK]

PK, first off, I am not as advanced as others, but being you asked.
When I built my room, I was told by someone that I should carpet the floor complete, hide my gear in a designated space, treat walls & ceiling with panels, cover my window with panels, so the end result is chair and speakers. This would be a dead room?
Well, that is not the kind of person I am, so I termed my room a live room.
After hardwood floors where in I put area carpet exposing 3' of hardwood all 4 sides.
I like looking at my rig, so my 3 audio racks, TV on wall and equipment are reflective.
I would never block my window, but do have shades with soft see through linen curtain, not entirely but a weak link in the 4 walls, some might say reflective.
Added two corner bass traps at front, 5 acoustic absorbers side walls, and 4 diffusers back wall.
So, this is why I use the term Live, because I still have reflective surfaces, but is treated just right for ME.
I was told It might be a good idea to add an acoustic panel on ceiling, I have not done that.
I have 3 subs 2 LFE subs diagonally across from each other, corner to corner, and 1 sub that is not LFE connected but speakon cable only directly to center channel speaker at terminals. So my bass nulls in the room are pretty much avoided.
I call this a Live Room?
I really like the way it sounds, we all have to do the best we can with what we have and whatever we do I think it also needs to match our personality, whats good for one is not necessarily the same for others.

Ok, I'm getting it now...lot's of room treatments but not as many as it could have. Some might consider it "live" for a treated room...I'm pretty much a newb in regard to room treatment and speaker placement so everyone is advanced! All the advice is appreciated.

 

[PK]

I am extremely satisfied with my current listening area, but it is in my nature as a gear head to always be fiddling with stuff. I am the only one that is critical to my listening area so a good idea is to bring friends over, when there jaw drops that is good validation for my hard work and obsessive nature.

Yes, that's gotta be pretty cool!

 

[kfbkfb]

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/.../speaker-time-alignment-does-it-matter.13849/
Another issue, some multi-way speakers are designed to minimize (driver) time alignment errors, others aren't.

It seems to me that that would be one use for auto room tuning, not use frequency response smoothing, but use time alignment adjustment.


Kirk Bayne

 

[Mcallister]

Typical rule of thumb is no more then 15% absorptive and no more than 20% diffusive.

 

[weekendtoy]

I think whether room correction will help or not depends on the room correction system and the reference/target curve. Over the Christmas break, I setup a new Denon receiver (X4500H) and went through the Audyssey room correction system and initially hated the sound. The receiver/audyssey system uses a flat target curve, which sounded lifeless and way too bright for me....

Your room correction software should have both a flat and reference (if not more) target curve. I agree with the flat target curve sounding unnatural, I do however greatly enjoy the reference target curve in my untreated room.