HiRez Poll Beck, Jeff - BLOW BY BLOW [SACD]

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Rate the SACD of Jeff Beck - BLOW BY BLOW


  • Total voters
    136
This is the next title in my quest to look at all the Sony SACDs sourced from quadraphonic masters. When I was doing the conversion from SACD to PCM to load up in my DAW I had a vague recollection that I'd had issues with the bass on this disc, and sure enough almost 13 years ago (!) I started a thread here about this title called Jeff Beck - Blow By Blow ...where's the bass?

Reading through the old thread, it plays out almost identically to the thread about the recent Opeth Blu-Ray, which had a couple of out-of-phase channels, both in terms of what I was experiencing (muddy/ill-defined bass guitar, lots of bass drum) and what other people were saying (people with full range speakers claiming it was fine). So the first thing I did once I had the album loaded up was look at phase correlation, and sure enough the front left and front right channels are out of phase with the rear channels (and the LFE track). See here:

View attachment 16944

You can clearly see the peaks (arrows placed for convenience by yours truly) for the front channels oscillate in the opposite direction as the rear speakers, which is a definitive visual indicator of phase issues. The LFE track (not pictured) oscillates the same way as the rear channels which tells me that it's the front channels that are the problem. Once you invert the phase on the front channels, all 5 channels are in phase and voila, there's the bass I was missing.

It's also worth saying that I think the phase issues were created during export. The LFE, being derived from the 4 main channels, would have been a phase cancelled mess if the original tracks were out of phase but it isn't. What I think happened is somewhere along the line, this mix went through an analog stage and the front left and front right channels were wired out of phase. I also think this went throught an ADAT (PCM stage) which I'll explain after this. It went one of two ways:

original tapes (in phase) -analog connection, in phase-> DAW (to generate LFE & phantom center) -digital connection-> ADAT (PCM) -analog out, front channels wired out of phase-> DSD workstation to generate SACD master

or

original tapes (in phase) -analog connection, in phase-> ADAT -digital connection-> DAW (LFE/center generation) -analog out, fronts wired out of phase-> DSD workstation to generate SACD master

The reason I think there's an ADAT generation in there somewhere is that spectral analysis shows frequency response cuts off abruptly at 22kHz. ADATs were the industry standard from the early 90's to the early 2000's for digital multitrack - they were 8 discrete channels, and first generation models were 16bit/48kHz and later models were 20bit and selectable 44.1/48kHz. I obviously don't have any conclusive proof, but I believe the 22kHz frequency cutoff makes it most likely this is a 20 bit/44.1kHz ADAT transfer - perhaps this was done initially with a view towards being a source for a DTS CD (which are 44.1/20bit) release that never happened. I just can't see them newly digitizing the master tape at 44.1kHz with SACD release in mind. Here's the spectral analysis:

View attachment 16945

So to sum up:

Front channels out of phase (accounts for my bass issues)
Sourced from a 44.1kHz master (accounts for some complaints about 'average' fidelity)
If you're re-authoring this in PCM with corrected phase, you can delete the center channel as it's just a mono sum of the front left & right channels

13 year old mystery solved. Feeling mildly smug today. :phones

I'm quoting steelydave's post simply because I know I'm not the only one who only recently converted everything to flac. Having done that, we now have the ability to make corrections like these, so I'm bumping this post for the recent converts. So far, I've done "Harvest" and "Hopes and Fears", and today I did "Blow by Blow". Is there a thread that lists the mixes that need correction?

P.S.: THANK YOU steelydave.
 
Reversed polarity is what's up with Blow by Blow on Sony SACDs.

But I heard that the O'Jays - Ship Ahoy has some wrong channel assignment issues btw.

Sorry if it's been covered I did not read the entire thread.
 
Hmm. Would this affect things if I was doing bass management? I play this album a lot, and I get alright if not spectacular bass when I send bass frequencies below 120 to my sub.

Maybe I’ll fool with this with a track and test.
 
I am and the phase issue doesn't matter. I'm getting great bass response on playback.

The newer release has the issue resolved. It is the Sony 1st release that is an issue. It was my 1st sacd, and it was not playable on anything but a sacd deck. I always thought the bass thing was due to the quad master?
I am a bit taken back by the negative responses though. I always thought very highly of this album, From day one.
 
I'm quoting steelydave's post simply because I know I'm not the only one who only recently converted everything to flac. Having done that, we now have the ability to make corrections like these, so I'm bumping this post for the recent converts. So far, I've done "Harvest" and "Hopes and Fears", and today I did "Blow by Blow". Is there a thread that lists the mixes that need correction?

P.S.: THANK YOU steelydave.

My pleasure, I'm glad this is continuing to help people out. It's definitely one my best know-it-all moments ever! If you use bass management at all, changing the phase on this disc is a night and day experience.

Just for the record, there is no SACD of this album with the phase issues completely corrected. The original US Sony, and the Sony Japan 7" Paper sleeve versions have the two rears and the LFE out of phase. The AP release from 2016 tried to correct the issue, fixing the phase problem with the rears but leaving the LFE still out of phase. So the only way to completely correct the phase issues is by ripping one of the discs to PCM and fixing all the phase issues yourself...unless you somehow own a DSD workstation.

I will have a look at the other thread linked in this one later on this evening and include my own little list of titles I've done either channel assignment or phase correction to.
 
My pleasure, I'm glad this is continuing to help people out. It's definitely one my best know-it-all moments ever! If you use bass management at all, changing the phase on this disc is a night and day experience.

Just for the record, there is no SACD of this album with the phase issues completely corrected. The original US Sony, and the Sony Japan 7" Paper sleeve versions have the two rears and the LFE out of phase. The AP release from 2016 tried to correct the issue, fixing the phase problem with the rears but leaving the LFE still out of phase. So the only way to completely correct the phase issues is by ripping one of the discs to PCM and fixing all the phase issues yourself...unless you somehow own a DSD workstation.

I will have a look at the other thread linked in this one later on this evening and include my own little list of titles I've done either channel assignment or phase correction to.

If I rip my Japanese 7" SACD, then invert the LF and RF channels, am I done?
 
It just seems positively ridiculous that with 'relatively' SO Few multichannel discs being released that SOMEBODY can't get it right. With three [count 'em] mch SACDs of Blow by Blow out there, you'd think out of the goodness of their hearts [and conscience] one of them would reissue a perfectly corrected REPLACEMENT SACD with ALL the phase issues corrected, especially considering SONY does own the SACD pressing plants and can effectively offer a replacement costing them next to nothing.

GREED!:yikes Pure and simple!
 
If I rip my Japanese 7" SACD, then invert the LF and RF channels, am I done?

I'm going to reply to myself here. First of all, I thought this SACD sounded great as played directly from the disc; the bass sounds fine. Now that I've ripped the disc and corrected (inverted) the front channels on the first track, I've done an A/B comparison and the bass sounds better. Time to do the rest of the album. Thanks, steelydave:)
 
Hmm. Would this affect things if I was doing bass management?

Yes, most definitely.

I play this album a lot, and I get alright if not spectacular bass when I send bass frequencies below 120 to my sub.

Maybe I’ll fool with this with a track and test.

You will get spectacular bass if you fix the phase problem.
 
It's odd that no one has ever reissued the 4.0 mix (as quad, not repurposed to 5.1) in digital.

I wonder if the fronts vs rears phase issue is there on the 4.0 master tape...
 
My pleasure, I'm glad this is continuing to help people out. It's definitely one my best know-it-all moments ever! If you use bass management at all, changing the phase on this disc is a night and day experience.

Just for the record, there is no SACD of this album with the phase issues completely corrected. The original US Sony, and the Sony Japan 7" Paper sleeve versions have the two rears and the LFE out of phase. The AP release from 2016 tried to correct the issue, fixing the phase problem with the rears but leaving the LFE still out of phase. So the only way to completely correct the phase issues is by ripping one of the discs to PCM and fixing all the phase issues yourself...unless you somehow own a DSD workstation.


(edited response...originally I was misreading steely's post)

just to be clear, one can 'fix' the problem by either:

inverting front left, center, and right

or

inverting rear left, rear right ,and LFE
 
(edited response...originally I was misreading steely's post)

just to be clear, one can 'fix' the problem by either:

inverting front left, center, and right

or

inverting rear left, rear right ,and LFE

I would expect one of the ways you suggest would be preferable to the other. As I recall the band XTC finding one of their albums "Skylarking" with both it's channels with out of phase polarity (all copies for 25 years), and issued a corrected version not that long ago on vinyl.

I believe that when a drum hits, you want to see the speaker cone come forward (correct polarity) and not suck inward (reversed polarity).
 
I would expect one of the ways you suggest would be preferable to the other.

One could try blind A/B testing the two polarity options using this recording, to learn if you really hear a difference. The best research on the audibility of absolute polarity (Greiner and Melton 1994) indicates it's only clearly audible under certain 'select and simplified musical settings'. It is not easily heard with 'normal complex musical program material'. So I wouldn't expect a preference under blind conditions for this one. (Preference 'sighted' doesn't count)

As I recall the band XTC finding one of their albums "Skylarking" with both it's channels with out of phase polarity (all copies for 25 years), and issued a corrected version not that long ago on vinyl.

I highly doubted that story/explanation at the time, and I doubt that Skylarking is 'simple' enough as a signal, to display an audible polarity. Especially on *vinyl*, which adds its own non-linear distortions. Someone in the XTC camp has drunk deep of the audiophile kool-aid.


I believe that when a drum hits, you want to see the speaker cone come forward (correct polarity) and not suck inward (reversed polarity).

It doesn't seem to matter in most contexts. It might matter if you are listening to drums alone. And it's basically impossible to know if absolute polarity has been maintained throughout a recording, production and playback chain. And if that's unknown, how do you know what 'correct' is?

Here's what Floyd Toole summarily says in the new 3rd edition of this book 'Sound Reproduction'


"..[The] asymmetrical detection process in the ear can yield audible polarity effects if the signal and the listening conditions are right. The problem is that ther appear to be no audio or film industry standards that ensure the delivery of such absolute polarity from the microphones, through the extensive electronic manipulations in control rooms or dubbing stages, which may be different for different components of a mix, and finally through the playvack electronics and loudspeakers at home. If there is a polarity switch in the playback chain, one may occasionally find a preferred setting, but there can be no knowing which setting is correct, and it may be different for different voices and instruments in an ensemble."
 
I just became aware of the out-of-phase issue with this disc, after having just ordered it from CDJapan. Had I seen this a few days prior, I would have passed on it. Having now listened to it, it does sound a bit lacking. Especially when I follow it with Wired. No comparison. I have a sub/sat system. Unlike a lot of you guys, I don't rip my discs. I can't find anything in my receiver's settings that allows changing a speaker's polarity. So am I correct in the assumption that my only option to listen to this properly is to physically reverse the connections on my front and center channel speakers?
 
Doesn’t get much better than this, does it? Great music. Classic album. Wild and crazy 70s quad mix.

Can’t believe I’ve waited so long to finally get a copy of this. (The “fixed” Analogue Sounds release)

This one is going to get played a lot!!

10! 10! 10!
 
One of my most favorite albums of all time! I'm listening to the 5.1 mix of the APO SACD and it sounds excellent. Cause We've Ended As Lovers just finished playing and there's plenty of bass so no issues there. I voted 9 as it's not quite on a par with Avalon or Sea Change which are my 5.1 gold standards.
 
I just became aware of the out-of-phase issue with this disc, after having just ordered it from CDJapan. Had I seen this a few days prior, I would have passed on it. Having now listened to it, it does sound a bit lacking. Especially when I follow it with Wired. No comparison. I have a sub/sat system. Unlike a lot of you guys, I don't rip my discs. I can't find anything in my receiver's settings that allows changing a speaker's polarity. So am I correct in the assumption that my only option to listen to this properly is to physically reverse the connections on my front and center channel speakers?
The 2016 Analogue Productions SACD bumps hard and sounds awesome, to these ears.
 
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