Better speakers ? Or Sub woofer

[elguapo511]

Is my sub woofer just allowing me to live with lower quality speakers?

If I upgrade my speakers will I no longer miss my sub?

It is challenging to find four matched speakers. I have four kenwood 777a. They are in great shape but are definitely old, and dim. I can brighten them up with an eq, but I always sounds better with a sub.

This is hard

 

[LuvMyQuad]

Is my sub woofer just allowing me to live with lower quality speakers?

If I upgrade my speakers will I no longer miss my sub?

It is challenging to find four matched speakers. I have four kenwood 777a. They are in great shape but are definitely old, and dim. I can brighten them up with an eq, but I always sounds better with a sub.

This is hard

I think this all depends on what new speakers you get and what sub you have. If the new speakers are full range and they adequately cover the range your sub covers now, you probably wont miss it. Having a look at the 777a's you mentioned, they look like they have pretty capable woofers and it might take a high performing sub to outperform them.

The "dimness" is another problem entirely.

 

[hobie1dog]

The big question is what subwoofer do you have?

 

[jimfisheye]

You seem to have two unrelated issues from what you describe.

"They are in great shape but are definitely old, and dim. I can brighten them up with an eq"
That's one issue. A subwoofer of course is only in the low frequency range, so it is not involved in this issue.

"sounds better with a sub"
This would be issue #2. Sounds like your mains may be frequency limited and not go down full range into low frequencies.

For issue #1 (subdued high end):
If we're resorting to eq, I'd recommend trying to cut whatever low mid frequencies are too hot that make the high end too far back.
Always go for cuts with an eq. Boosts are radical and can easily lead to distortion. A little counterintuitive at first (because it's human to identify the thing missing instead of the thing that's too much) but EQ 101 is cut, don't boost unless a special case.

I'd still be inclined to look for a passive way with positioning in the room to achieve a more flat balance. But if it's impossible for whatever reason, so be it.

For issue #2 (truncated or subdued bass response):
You can go to a speaker managed setup where you remove the low frequency content from all the main channels and add it to the Lfe channel. The subwoofer then handles all the low frequency content redirected from the main channels in addition to any bass fx content in the Lfe channel from a 5.1 source. Use the speaker management controls on your surround receiver or computer media player (or OS audio control panel) to dial this in. Bass is omnidirectional, so there should be no difference in the end result between reproducing it with capable mains vs a sub when calibrated. (Speaker management controls are sometimes labeled "bass management".)

If you upgraded your mains to something that handled full range better, you might actually end up speaker managing the system the opposite way. Remove the subwoofer from the system. Redirect the Lfe channel content from 5.1 sources to the front L,R pair.

Dialing in speaker management settings is not that bad.
A tone generator plugin in your favorite DAW app and your ears will get you there.

First pick 3 different frequencies (notes). High, mid, low. Make the low one in the range of your sub.
Toggle between all 3 and you want to hear them the same volume. You don't want one to be clearly louder. If it is... there's your first target to go after.

Then do a frequency sweep. (Again, from a tone generator plugin.)
You're now listening for any weirdness at the crossover frequency for the sub. You don't want to hear a boost or dropout at that spot. If you do... that means there's a phase problem between the mains and sub speaker drivers at that frequency. Adjust the crossover point until this stops.


By all means pull out sound meters and get more critical and all that if you wish! I'm not suggesting not to. But your ears and those simple tests will get you 98% of the way there.

PS. If you're old school and have no computer connection, you can find a CD or DVD with test tones. A bit clumsy punching the controls on a disc player vs instant clicky on a computer but it will get you there. Some surround receivers have cursory test tone features too.

 

[elguapo511]

I have a powered tivoli sub with and option to go passive.

Also a phase switch 0 or 180.

Then a a switch for four different hz frequencies. 110 145 190 and 250.

I have a yamah rx-365 with analog inputs and since the sub is powered I run it straight from the pre amp.

Is the receiver getting confused?

 

[ssully]

Those Kenwoods are what's called, semi-affectionately, 'kabuki' speakers. From the long ago day (model 777A dates to the mid 1970s) when the Japanese companies were competing to cram the most transducers and crossovers into one cabinet, for the least money. Typically the cost-cutting came in the enclosure design.

(Some also call them 'party speakers', the reputation being, they sounded best when 'cranked' )

I'd think about upgrading them. Budget loudspeaker design has come a long way since then.

*And*, unless the new ones are truly full range down to at least 30Hz, adding a subwoofer or two.

 

[jimfisheye]

Those devices don't communicate "computer style" between themselves, so no confusion like that.

You have multiple sets of controls at your disposal (as is often the case).
So for dialing in a crossover for speaker management needs, use the control set that works the best. Either something built into the receiver or the crossover controls on the sub.

More...
Controls found on a subwoofer like that as well as speaker management controls on any given receiver are often limited like you described.
For example, that sub is only giving you 4 static choices for crossover frequencies whereas with a computer you could simply pick anything.
But you should be able to get yourself well into the ballpark with that. "Limited" might be too strong of a word.

If something is a mystery - oddly labeled or something...
Play with it!
Bring up the sub by itself for example and listen to the sound when you switch the crossover frequency and listen for the truncation effect.
Then set it back to flat and play with the speaker management controls in the receiver and shake that down.
etc etc etc

 

[elguapo511]

gotcha, This is all making some serious sense.

Here are the specs on the speakers

Type: 4 way, 6 driver loudspeaker system
Frequency Response: 25Hz to 22kHz
Power Handling: 110W
Crossover Frequency: 700, 5000, 10000Hz
Impedance: 8Ω
Sensitivity: 97dB

Is this full range?

And as old as these are, to speakers lose frequency response over time.

Once full Range, always Full Range?

 

[jimfisheye]

gotcha, This is all making some serious sense.

Here are the specs on the speakers

Type: 4 way, 6 driver loudspeaker system
Frequency Response: 25Hz to 22kHz
Power Handling: 110W
Crossover Frequency: 700, 5000, 10000Hz
Impedance: 8Ω
Sensitivity: 97dB

Is this full range?

And as old as these are, to speakers lose frequency response over time.

Once full Range, always Full Range?

Yep, 25 - 22k is full range alright.

Losing high end over time but not a black and white tweeter is blown kind of thing?
Hmmm... There are enough variables that it's possible. It's not at all a normal thing like car brakes wearing out though.

A tweeter driver fatigued? A cap in the crossover drying out? Hard to speculate.

 

[LuvMyQuad]

its probably worth a go to get an ear close to each cone and see if you can detect sound coming from it. It could well be a blown tweeter or crossover component, especially with the last crossover point being 10kHz.

 

[bluelightning]

I agree with everything said so far for the most part. Whether to upgrade is going to depend on a lot of factors. Firstly, it will depend on how much time, money and effort you are willing to put into it and what your end goal is. From what you have posted so far , there is no doubt that you could benefit significantly from an upgrade in both your subwoofer, LCR speakers and your receiver potentially. I would most definitely go with a subwoofer or two for the low end. There are very few unpowered speakers (even high end ) that are flat to 20 Hz and below and those that are, are very expensive. A good subwoofer does this job much more effectively. You should research some of these internet direct manufacturers (Hsu, SVS, Rythmik, Monoprice monolith etc) for it.

 

[bluelightning]

gotcha, This is all making some serious sense.

Here are the specs on the speakers

Type: 4 way, 6 driver loudspeaker system
Frequency Response: 25Hz to 22kHz
Power Handling: 110W
Crossover Frequency: 700, 5000, 10000Hz
Impedance: 8Ω
Sensitivity: 97dB

Is this full range?

And as old as these are, to speakers lose frequency response over time.

Once full Range, always Full Range?

The spec above doesn't tell the full story even if brand new. Sure they are full range, but there could be huge gaps in frequency. Also doesn't list to what level -3 dB , 10 dB , -20 dB ?

 

[ssully]

Yep, 25 - 22k is full range alright.

+/- x dB? Also really depends on those measurements were taken. I wouldn't put much faith in 1970s-era specs....not to mention the pair may be ~forty yrs old.

 

[elguapo511]

The spec above doesn't tell the full story even if brand new. Sure they are full range, but there could be huge gaps in frequency. Also doesn't list to what level -3 dB , 10 dB , -20 dB ?

This might be where my understanding no longe exists.

What doe the decibel levels have to do with the frequency range. Are you saying that at certain levels, different frequency perk up. Thats why these sound great crazy loud? And does that mean, I should seak speakers that sound great at low volumes?

+/- x dB? Also really depends on those measurements were taken. I wouldn't put much faith in 1970s-era specs....not to mention the pair may be ~forty yrs old.

at this point, the speakers and a pioneer 949 traveled on a navy ship back to a navy base in illinois, and remained within 5 miles of the base until 2010 when i grabbed them. This was in the l8 70s. or so i have been told, and now that I type this...it doesnt make much sence.

 

[quadsearcher]

Tivoli makes mini-systems, yes? Is it a small 9" thing? While I've heard of a Model One used as a center speaker, their sub is small compared to four full range Kenwoods, however thin their cabinets might be. I've played with/used a lot of different speakers and some 70's stuff will be fine but some will have bad crossover caps and/or bad tweeters or maybe mids. Some are old Fisher, some Jensen, others. I mention the problems with highs because I noticed an odd thing....when a tweeter is bad or weak from the crossover, the bass sounds weak. A trick of perception.

 

[Mesozoic Mike]

I have always found a subwoofer to be necessary, no matter what the main speakers are.

 

[hobie1dog]

I have always found a subwoofer to be necessary, no matter what the main speakers are.

+1

 

[Soundfield]

Not a fan I'm afraid, "....like a fish needs a bicycle" as far as I'm concerned.