Blood Sweat and Tears (Second Album) and it's 3 quad mixes

[JonUrban]

Today I've been sort of wiped out from home renovations and decided to play around on the PC for a while. I never know what's going to get my attention when I open up Sound Forge, but for some reason I decided to "look into" some BS&T. I found that I had my AF SACD rip (which is basically the official Q8 mix sounding better than ever possible on Q8), but I also had files from the two Robin Reels. So I got them all queue'd up and decided to see what the differences might be. In the past it's been talked about but I could not find an older thread looking at the differences so I figured I'd start one up for posterities sake so that future QQ'ers might have a reference.

So here is the first track I decided to pluck out. It's track 6, "God Bless the Child", the old Billie Holiday classic from 1939. There are very stark differences in all three mixes that you can see (and hear), but alas I can only post the visuals. So here goes:

THE OFFICIAL COLUMBIA MIX (Q8/AF SACD): Intro horns in all 4 channels. Vocals in the fronts and at a lower volume in the rears.

THE ROBIN REEL #1: Intro horns in the rears, mostly skewed toward the left rear. Drums and bass solo in the fronts along with lead vocals. Lead vocals again at a lower level in the rears. This is a VERY discrete mix compared to the commercial release.

THE ROBIN REEL #2: This one starts with the horns equally spread out across the fronts. Drums and some horns in the fronts. Lead vocal is ONLY in the fronts with no bleed to the rears.
Again, a very discrete mix, but very strange having the drum kit spread out across the fronts with the vocals. You almost feel like you are at the drum kit!

Three really different mixes. As I putter about I will do the same for some of the other songs if you guys are interested.

Also, I would love to hear from AoQ who spent a lot of time with these mixes as to what he thinks of them and which he prefers. Or anyone else for that matter. I know these things are "out there" in the wild.

 

[JonUrban]

So, now "Spinning Wheel". Many complaints in the poll thread for the SACD in that the longer version of this song was not used for the Columbia GH album, which meant that AF received the master tape for the released version that did not have the longer ending.

Well, the Robin Reel 2 has that ending, and you can see it, and hear it, below. First up, the released version wav file:

THE OFFICIAL COLUMBIA MIX (Q8/AF SACD): Again, the horns at the intro come at you from all 4 speakers. Maybe this is something that they wanted to do that would sound better with the shitty SQ encoding that they used. Who knows? Vocals again can be heard in the rears at a lower volume.

THE ROBIN REEL #1: Horn intro in the rears here. Vocals in the rears as well, and in fact early in the song, the only thing in the rear right is the lower volumed vocal. Very strange!

THE ROBIN REEL #2: Horns in the rear again, but different this time. Absolutely no vocals in the rears. Very discrete percussion and brass in the rears. And of course, the extended ending with talking.

Here's a flac of the ending. I hope it fits! It didn't

So I put it on my Mega hosting, it's very small, about 15Mb.

https://mega.nz/file/rUYXAaYQ#7PTSKWzuR30nVQsZE5f0cz-oValtkBobt86iTrnbJZs

 

[sjcorne]

I didn't know there were two different versions of the album on the Robin Reels. I think I only have Reel #2? Overall, I think it's a much better listen than the 'official' mix on SQ/Q8/SACD--with the only exceptions being a missing horn part in "You've Made Me So Very Happy" and the way the extended drums/bass section in "Blues Part II" is handled.
https://www.quadraphonicquad.com/fo...-quad-reels-of-the-late-70s.13343/post-517018

 

[steelydave]

I agree, the "Robin Reel #2" is the one for me, it's far more exciting than the other mixes, despite its flaws.

I always felt like they mistakenly pulled the wrong tape when they released the 2nd BS&T album in quad. It came out in late 1973, but I'm reasonably confident that these mixes were done much earlier (ie in 1970 or 71 at the latest, once they settled on SQ) as they don't have nearly the same level of polish as the 'new' CBS quads that were coming out in late '73/early '74. To me what's really telling is that the quad mix of the album includes those two single edits, which I can't think was intentional or preferred, given that no other non-greatest hits Columbia/Epic quad LPs include single edits in place of the album versions.

It seems like Columbia must've done a lot of quad mixing that they then had to 're-do' it when it was decided to adopt SQ as the quad LP format of choice. I think the Laura Nyro Eli album is similar, there are two unreleased quad mixes on Robin Reels, and then a 3rd mix on the AF SACD that came out a few years ago which has SQ-compliant rear speaker mixing, ie no instruments panned to rear phantom center, whereas the unreleased versions do.

I've often wondered if there are unreleased mixes of any of the other BS&T quad albums in the vault - their 3rd album seems like the likeliest candidate, recorded in 1970 and very popular through 1971, and recorded and mixed at CBS San Francisco (where Santana & Buddy Miles Live! and Santana's Caravanserai albums were mixed for quad) by Roy Halee, who was in charge of the studio there and did the quad mixes of Simon & Garfunkel Bridge over Troubled Water, Paul Simon self-titled, and Garfunkel Angel Clare there.

 

[Q-Eight]

To me, the "Greatest Hits" Q8 mix seems to be a collapsed mix of the #2 Robin reel. Like they intended to go full four-corner discrete, only learning that it made for some silent channels in discrete and probably a messy decode in SQ. Remove that heavy separation and the SQ mix tightens up and you have fewer dead channels. Take for example the song "Lucretia McEvil" on the Greatest Hits. Horns are mostly to the rear, drums are mostly to the front. Vocals and bass are mostly to the front as well.

 

[JonUrban]

I messed with the newest version of this track today, and still, no matter what the technology might be, to my old decrepit 4 channel ears, the Robin Reel #2 is still the winner. Probably some of the finest quad surround you can find out there, even for such vintage material

 

[ar surround]

That's very interesting as I was just listening to some cuts from Robin Reel #2 this afternoon and really enjoying how good it sounds. On the AF quad, I despise the mixes/single edits of Spinning Wheel and You've Made Me So Very Happy...they're totally de-balled in both sound content and quality. And When I Die on the AF quad leaves a lot to be desired also.

 

[Q-Eight]

The more I listen to the discrete versions, the more I think I would've mixed the songs differently. The horns are such a prominent part of the ensemble, they should be in the front. So the front channels would have the Horns wide, the drums in a narrow mix, DCT and Bass up the middle, with the guitars, organs, piano, percussion in the back corners and fill up the empty spots with some horn & vocal echo. Unless of course, there's 4 tracks of horns, then we'd split those into the corners.

 

[sjcorne]

Funny, the horns in the rear is the best part of the quad mix for me.

 

[Q-Eight]

Funny, the horns in the rear is the best part of the quad mix for me.

I would agree if every song featured at least a piano (in stereo), an organ, two guitars or two separate percussives. Then, I would agree to put horns in the back, drums up front and something in every corner. Isn't it peculiar though how DENSE B,S&T sounds in stereo, yet in Quad it's actually quite spartan? Most just drums, bass, horns and vocals.

When I mix to Quad, I try my best to avoid silent channels. Like The Trammps 24-track of "Disco Inferno"..... there's a piano, a clavinet, an organ, several synths, three different guitars, congas.... there's LOTS to play with and keep the rhythm instruments holding focus and putting some of the more frilly parts off in the corners. It's a crying shame Quad didn't survive into the age of Disco.

 

[ar surround]

I would agree if every song featured at least a piano (in stereo), an organ, two guitars or two separate percussives. Then, I would agree to put horns in the back, drums up front and something in every corner. Isn't it peculiar though how DENSE B,S&T sounds in stereo, yet in Quad it's actually quite spartan? Most just drums, bass, horns and vocals...

I've noticed that effect on some quads: that the stereo sounds DENSE and the Quad quite spartan. Sometimes the solution is to simply crank up the Quad, which usually can be done because the mixes are cleaner given the reduction in tape saturation afforded by distributing the mix to 4 channels vs two.

Another solution is to apply a judicious amount of Auromatic (Auro 3D) if you have it. (In the past, I used Lexicon Logic7 which was quite spectacular.)

Lastly, you can do what I did on Introduction and Questions 67 and 68 on CTA. On these two tracks all of the horns are solely in the left rear channel, which I find annoying. So I remixed it into 5.0 by duplicating the left rear channel in the center channel. Doing so spreads the horns sufficiently to attain a more satisfying sound field.

 

[humprof]

The more I listen to the discrete versions, the more I think I would've mixed the songs differently. The horns are such a prominent part of the ensemble, they should be in the front. So the front channels would have the Horns wide, the drums in a narrow mix, DCT and Bass up the middle, with the guitars, organs, piano, percussion in the back corners and fill up the empty spots with some horn & vocal echo. Unless of course, there's 4 tracks of horns, then we'd split those into the corners.

https://www.pro-tools-expert.com/production-expert-1/the-mixers-curse-do-you-suffer-from-it

 

[Q-Eight]

Lastly, you can do what I did on Introduction and Questions 67 and 68 on CTA. On these two tracks all of the horns are solely in the left rear channel, which I find annoying. So I remixed it into 5.0 by duplicating the left rear channel in the center channel. Doing so spreads the horns sufficiently to attain a more satisfying sound field.

I did the same with Sly & the Family Stone's "I wanna take you higher". Horns are also in BL but I went a step further, doubled it, delayed it and EQ'd it ever so slightly and sent THAT to the right channel. Gives a very nice stereo effect to the horn section and fills the rear nicely. Now if I could only successfully fly the organ part into FL from the stereo mix....

 

[JonUrban]

Not horns, but for my Jackson Browne Late for the Sky conversion I did for my car, I didn't like the fact that the Eagles were in only one of the rear channels, I think on "The Late Show". I pulled the vocals from that channel and layered them into the other rear channel. Made it sound much better to my ears, which at the time still worked.

Think about it guys. 50 years ago, when we first bought all of this stuff, who would have thought that we, as hobbiests, be able to remix and reassign audio from a commercial recording to make it fit our needs.

Pretty amazing, really

 

[Q-Eight]

Not horns, but for my Jackson Browne Late for the Sky conversion I did for my car, I didn't like the fact that the Eagles were in only one of the rear channels, I think on "The Late Show". I pulled the vocals from that channel and layered them into the other rear channel. Made it sound much better to my ears, which at the time still worked.

Think about it guys. 50 years ago, when we first bought all of this stuff, who would have thought that we, as hobbiests, be able to remix and reassign audio from a commercial recording to make it fit our needs.

Pretty amazing, really

Oh man, you ain't kidding. When I think of the songs I've gotten digital multitrack copies of.... I still get insanely giddy. Ten years ago, you'd have never been able to explain to me that I'd be able to remix:

Bohemian Rhapsody from 24 track
Burning Love from 16 track
WAR! (by Edwin Starr) from 16-track (never would have guessed!!)
Dancing Machine (by the Jacksons) from 16-track
American Pie from 16 track
BACKSTABBERS!! from 16-track

Al Green, Bob Marley, the B-52's, the Bee Gees, Barry White, Carpenters, Buffalo Springfield, Boston, Donna Summer, Edgar Winter, Elton John, Harold Melvin, Isaac Hayes, The Trammps.... it's just insane.