Blu-Ray profile 3.0 (Audio only)

[Jens]

My understanding of blu-ray profile 3.0 is that it's EXACTLY the same as the blu-ray video format, just with no obligation for advanced blu-ray video features (BD-J, and maybe PiP). I.e. you could manufacture a "Blu-ray profile 3.0 ONLY" player if you wanted (which is a bit silly anyway as you'd want to have movie playback as well). In other words, Blu-ray video IS Blu-ray audio, it's exactly the same format (unlike DVD-Audio compared to DVD-Video). It's more comparable to Audio CD vs. CD-ROM, but even better - NO new physical technology is required ANYWHERE, industry or consumer-side. ALL that would be required, is for the recording/CES industry to market it and call it something like "Blu CD" with its own logo. EVERY blu-ray player ALREADY out there supports it, NOW. And every tool which allows you to make a BD disc (of which there are already numerous free ones) can already make a "blu-ray audio" disc. We just need to give it a good name and logo so that average consumers can understand what it is.

You've got it almost right. The tricky thing is that BD Profile 3.0 is not a disc profile but a player profile. I haven't been involved in BD standardistion for the last couple of years but a colleague of mine who has been explained this to me. It's a subset of a regular BD player. Apparently, not only BD-Java can be dispensed with, also video decoding, though not graphics decoding, from what I gathered.

I don't expect it to catch on. The only place I could imagine for such devices would be the car but DVD-Audio has not been the smashing success that warrants high expectations. And there have never been any portable DVD-Audio players, have there? All home devices have been 'hybrid' DVD-Audio/Video players.

 

[alexander J]

Unfortunately I can not give you fresh news about 3.0 profile development but our studio developed our own version of Audio Only Disc that plays on every BD player, call it a new generation of dts music discs.

Here our new titles that will be released as Audio Only:

Tchaikovsky - Piano Concertos Nos. 1&3

MUSSORGSKY: Pictures at an Exhibition / Boris Godunov/ Night on Bare Mountain (Stokowski Transcriptions)

All are available for preorder from Amazon.

 

[Quadro-Action]

A german paper (STEREO) has now reported, that against earlier statements from the industry they now begin to have an interess for the Audio (Surround) Blu Ray. The details for the profil 3 shall be lay down in the middle of the year. That means, that we quadraphonic and surround fans can have hope, that our most import and interesting thing will go forward. It would be the third start and a proverb says "all well things are three" which means: After analog Quadraphony, then the different digital Surrounds (DTS-CD, SA-CD, DVD-Audio now only and again One record, which is working like a CD. Buit important will be from my sight, that the marketing must be better since before. The consumer could see in the catalogues, that there are 3.000 productions, but by the dealers he can find only 30 or 50. Further important is, that there is an offer of music, which will find really interess by the consumers. That must be fewer special sections (from Heavy Metal till Free Jazz), but more Easy Listening and Pop like Madonna, Robbie Williams, Tina Turner (touring actual accross Germany). But alltogether a well information from the paper. It is now interesting, what other papers will report.

 

[timbre4]

Thanks for the post, I hope they're serious now. Another quote is "third time's a charm..."

 

[Audi A3]

A german paper (STEREO) has now reported, that against earlier statements from the industry they now begin to have an interess for the Audio (Surround) Blu Ray. The details for the profil 3 shall be lay down in the middle of the year.

This might be interesting . Do you have a link or will you be able to upload a scan?

 

[neil wilkes]

Further important is, that there is an offer of music, which will find really interess by the consumers. That must be fewer special sections (from Heavy Metal till Free Jazz), but more Easy Listening and Pop like Madonna, Robbie Williams, Tina Turner (touring actual accross Germany). But alltogether a well information from the paper. It is now interesting, what other papers will report.

And there is the big problem with Blu Ray - it's too expensive.
Has anyone told Sony there is a massive economic thing going on right now?? Try to get this stuff authored, prepared & replicated.
You must spend a hell of a lot of money to do this, and all you are doing is re-inventing the wheel with a newer wheel that is incompatible with all older axles.
BD will only play oin BD players, is viciously expensive to create (you are talking many tens of thousands of dollars just for authoring software, plus licenses (annual payable by authoring house and per title payable by the rights holders) plus replication.
Add to that we do not kbnow if "Profile 3.0" will play at all on current players. There are a hell of a lot of them that will not decode Dolby True HD 5.1 in lossless - you get the hidden DD stream instead as it just is not mandatory to support this. Wonder how many will need either firmware upgrades or else replacing altogether?
(Can you see a mainstream Tina Turner head upgrading formware to make a disc play? They will mainly just take it back & say it does not work)
Why up your bill tenfold when you can do a DVD-A/V right now that plays on all DVD players? It just does not make any sense - practical or economical.
I for one am not interested in Tina Turner, Robbie Williams etc. I could not care less - and their audience won't give a hoot about surround either.
We are a niche. And it's a small one at that. Niche markets will not prosper with limited, mainstream & brutally expensive content.

 

[Quadro-Action]

to Audi A 3 Unfortunately I am not working with scans. But may be in future.

to Neil W. All developments are expensive and difficult from CD to DVD or also SA-CD and DVD-Audio - and the battle between HD-DVD and Blu Ray. When one would see only the diffuculties, we could stop each progress. Each future success needs at first investment. And by Blu Ray video music they make this already. And why only looking to Sony? I think, we should at first look to the coming results of the profile 3. We have now hope, that Surround music can be no longer a niche product. I have sometimes the feeling, that any producers have been proud to be a niche as trademark for art. The result was - beneth others - the fail down of SA-CD and DVD-Audio. We need at first line music for the taste of the masses. And so we need popular artists likeTina Turner or the early M. Jackson etc. pp. with a surround (re)mix. If one don' t like expecialy this named artists it is not important. Difficult tastes exist always. Again desperation I like such surround pioneers as Morten Lindberg from the label L2 in Norway with his first audio-only Blu Ray "Divertimenti". OK, classical music is also a niche, but it is now in first line a take - off. Let's look, how the future is working for surround sound. The surround fans can only wish the best.

 

[alexander J]

Again desperation I like such surround pioneers as Morten Lindberg from the label L2 in Norway with his first audio-only Blu Ray "Divertimenti".

I am not trying to make a history here but the 1st real Audio Only Blu-ray Disc featuring new 7.1 Audio format (not 5.1 SACD-Blu-ray combo) was released a month before "Divertimenti".
This title is Grieg - Piano Concerto / Symphonic Dances / In Autumn - Acoustic Reality Experience by Surround Records.

Release Date: April 25, 2008.

 

[Quadro-Action]

Hello Alexander J - well occasion to write to you. Because I can not know, what is released worldwide, I have named the "Divertimenti", which is in our (German) area named in the papers as first only audio Blu Ray. Well to know, that further on another Blu Ray Audio. But is the other Blu Ray also recorded or mixed in full surround - which means music from around? Sometimes by classical surround recordings are to listen from back only reverberances. Meantime there is a second Audio Blu Ray produced from L2 with the title "Sonar". This is "modern composed music", which I self don't like very much. But that is a meaning of own tastes. But now to 7.1 surround configurations. Because one could see by inquiries, that only 10% of the home-cinema fans will or have installed a 7.1 system - and the most music listernes have further on an only 2-channel system - I think, a producing in this channel configuration is producing niches for a niche (as classical seems to be for many). I self listen further on with a big 4.0 system.
But now to your surround productions, which I know from the internet. There have been 3 titles on HD DVD. This should offered again in Blu Ray. Are these Blu-Records meawhile available? After buying the DVD-Audio "The Uncommon Mozart" I would like to test at least one of these additional titles.
Dietrich

 

[alexander J]

Dear Ditrich,

Pleased to know that you experienced "Uncommon Mozart" DVD-A.

This is my 7.1 DTS-HD Master Audio Music Collection up to date that consist
by now of 18 tiles > and more projects are coming


Enjoy 7.1 Music,

Best wishes

Alexander.

Hello Alexander J - well occasion to write to you. Because I can not know, what is released worldwide, I have named the "Divertimenti", which is in our (German) area named in the papers as first only audio Blu Ray. Well to know, that further on another Blu Ray Audio. But is the other Blu Ray also recorded or mixed in full surround - which means music from around? Sometimes by classical surround recordings are to listen from back only reverberances. Meantime there is a second Audio Blu Ray produced from L2 with the title "Sonar". This is "modern composed music", which I self don't like very much. But that is a meaning of own tastes. But now to 7.1 surround configurations. Because one could see by inquiries, that only 10% of the home-cinema fans will or have installed a 7.1 system - and the most music listernes have further on an only 2-channel system - I think, a producing in this channel configuration is producing niches for a niche (as classical seems to be for many). I self listen further on with a big 4.0 system.
But now to your surround productions, which I know from the internet. There have been 3 titles on HD DVD. This should offered again in Blu Ray. Are these Blu-Records meawhile available? After buying the DVD-Audio "The Uncommon Mozart" I would like to test at least one of these additional titles.
Dietrich

 

[Quadro-Action]

hello Alexander, I may now make attempts to catch one (or any) of your Blu Ray discs. I am always interested, what is produced in surround. But of course, it must be my taste.

Dietrich

 

[Quadro-Action]

At 22. May in Munich/Germanxy start the audio exhibition "High End". And thre will be further demonstrations of the Audio only Blur Ray from the MSM Studios in Munich and they presen further examples aof the new development or mode of the Blu Ray. Important is the easy handlung by playing this new audio stereo and surround disc. The often needed screen for install the mode for stereo or surround tracks together with the introduction jingle music is/was not really wanted from the music-surround consumers. And has frighten off many till now stereo listener before they would change to surround-music.
For an easy selection between the stereo and surround tracks are needed only the colored keys on the remote controls for the player. When I will listen or read further news about the Audio Blu Ray I will report this also here.
Dietrich

 

[Audi A3]

http://www.pureaudio-bluray.com/

From München High End 2009

In german !!!

 

[Quadro-Action]

This Web-Side reports about the first classical Audio Pure Blu Rays and the first of Pop, which is from Sarah K. Also is reported, that the MSM Studios in Munich have developed a method for easy handlung and channel installation by the Blu Ray Pure Audio without the TV. Needed is only the different coloured little keys on the remote control. And shown are 13 reports in different magazines about the "only" Music Surround Blu Ray. I have written to the leader of the MSM Studio with e-mail, that we fans of Quadraphony will welcome this activities, because most of us are also interested for modern Surround, which is in the essence further on Quadraphony. And the key-word for an (finally) success of music surround is on: Simplicity.

Dietrich

 

[davip]

And there is the big problem with Blu Ray - it's too expensive.
Has anyone told Sony there is a massive economic thing going on right now?? Try to get this stuff authored, prepared & replicated.
You must spend a hell of a lot of money to do this, and all you are doing is re-inventing the wheel with a newer wheel that is incompatible with all older axles.
BD will only play oin BD players, is viciously expensive to create (you are talking many tens of thousands of dollars just for authoring software, plus licenses (annual payable by authoring house and per title payable by the rights holders) plus replication.
Add to that we do not kbnow if "Profile 3.0" will play at all on current players. There are a hell of a lot of them that will not decode Dolby True HD 5.1 in lossless - you get the hidden DD stream instead as it just is not mandatory to support this. Wonder how many will need either firmware upgrades or else replacing altogether?
(Can you see a mainstream Tina Turner head upgrading formware to make a disc play? They will mainly just take it back & say it does not work)
Why up your bill tenfold when you can do a DVD-A/V right now that plays on all DVD players? It just does not make any sense - practical or economical.
I for one am not interested in Tina Turner, Robbie Williams etc. I could not care less - and their audience won't give a hoot about surround either.
We are a niche. And it's a small one at that. Niche markets will not prosper with limited, mainstream & brutally expensive content.

There's a certain amount of vested interest here Neil, as you make your living in DVD-A production and don't sound too keen on the cost of tooling-up for BD; it's always a good time to buy when you talk to the estate agent!

I've tried and tried with DVD-A, and I give up -- it's fundamentally-compromised as a format in its ties to the DVD-V architecture. I have access to DW Chrome and SurCode for home authoring, but the vast majority of players are just unusable in navigational terms. I don't know about you, but I don't want or need a TV turned on when I listen to music, yet there is no single player that I have found that will let me do simple things like enter random play or numerical track select without a blisteringly-confusing macro of button pushes, e.g., to play track 92 on my JVC EX-A1 I have to press '10' nine times, then '2', then 'Enter'. A CD player would ask only that you press '9' followed by '2'. Ditto random play on the Pioneer DV-610, where I must press 'Play Mode', then two clicks of the 'down arrow' to select 'Random', followed by the same cycle to select between 'Random Group' 'Random Track' or 'Random from all Groups'. Believe it or not, I have to go through the same laborious routine to select 'Random Off'. A CD player just requires that you press 'Random'. Try doing all that without a TV display. This is the problem: the fcked-up interface, and that's why DVD-A is dead. Let's not even go into the DVD-A track limit -- significant with redbook files, many hundred of which can fit on an MLP'd DVD-A, and the dreaded PUOs (Prevent User Operations, that we all know and hate from DVD-V [I once saw a DVD-A disc that said Forward Search was 'not allowed'!!]). SACD is hamstrung by digital-out limitations, as well as not being accessible to PCs, and is similarly finished. Like it or not, BD is the better alternative. Contrast all this with BD:

from the Pure audio site: "...Blu-ray combines the requisite storage capacity for surround and high resolution sound (24Bit/192kHz) with the uncomplicated handling of a standard compact disc (CD). This Blu-ray disc is configured in such a way that it can be played back with the simple functionality of a CD on any Blu-ray player. The user can, but is not obliged to, take advantage of the visual options (screen menu). In other words, the Pure Audio Blu-ray Disc is an autonomous medium: no TV is required to use it. The functionality is as easy as with CD: the user can navigate with the remote control and push the dedicated buttons for PLAY, STOP, SKIP and all other functions. The numeric keys directly access the corresponding track number and the desired audio stream can be selected by the coloured keys on the remote control. For example, press the red button for 5.1 DTS HD Master or yellow for 2.0 LPCM". All with no track limits and bags of space.

DVD-A had everything going for it and they screwed it up. Good riddance.

 

[JonUrban]

....... I don't know about you, but I don't want or need a TV turned on when I listen to music, yet there is no single player that I have found that will let me do simple things like enter random play or numerical track select without a blisteringly-confusing macro of button pushes......

Why can this be done, even while driving, in cars like the Acura's, yet it's such a nightmare in the home? @:

It doesn't matter how the DVD-A was authored, when I take it in the car, it works just like a CD! It has to be a hardware thing....

 

[timbre4]

To be viable commercially, any audio BD will likely have to have visuals for the imagination impaired generation(s). I think I saw the answer recently on an excellent Beatles program on the History channel in HD. What they came up with using visual scraps and studio chatter is nothing short of amazing. I do not know the name of the technique for floating the graphics in 3 dimentional layers, it looks stunning.

I really think that assembling related band visuals (along with whatever) would create a visual compelling enough that I would watch or skip when I just wanted to hear the music by itself.

Coming up next: Format fireworks

 

[arnold_layne]

Why can this be done, even while driving, in cars like the Acura's, yet it's such a nightmare in the home? @:

It doesn't matter how the DVD-A was authored, when I take it in the car, it works just like a CD! It has to be a hardware thing....

I only have a handful of dvd-a's but all that i do have, I pop in my Onkyo DV-SP506 universal player and play them just like a CD.

A_L

 

[wanners]

Yeah, I don't think this is a problem inherent in the dvda format. TACET discs all are designed to play like cds, and they do. Any issues with controls could be fixed and tweaked as manufacturers learn and people decide what they want. this is the normal process of getting feedback on something that is new.

I agree with timbre4, the new generation is addicted to visuals. Besides, you will always need a tv to set up your blu ray player, after that, it should be a choice whether or not you want your tv involved.

 

[davip]

Yeah, I don't think this is a problem inherent in the dvda format. TACET discs all are designed to play like cds, and they do. Any issues with controls could be fixed and tweaked as manufacturers learn and people decide what they want. this is the normal process of getting feedback on something that is new.

I agree with timbre4, the new generation is addicted to visuals. Besides, you will always need a tv to set up your blu ray player, after that, it should be a choice whether or not you want your tv involved.

Well, while there is little to disagree with in all of the above, two points don't chime:

i) it's too late for DVD-A manufacturers to learn what people want - the format is dead, and deservedly so. Sure, discs play like CDs if you just pop them in and press 'Play'. If you want to do anything more ambitious than play or track-skip, then the original point stands.

ii) why should a TV be necessary to listen to music (this is a Profile 3 discussion, after all)? Not everyone has or watches TV