Blu-Ray profile 3.0 (Audio only)

[wanners]

Well, while there is little to disagree with in all of the above, two points don't chime:

i) it's too late for DVD-A manufacturers to learn what people want - the format is dead, and deservedly so. Sure, discs play like CDs if you just pop them in and press 'Play'. If you want to do anything more ambitious than play or track-skip, then the original point stands.

ii) why should a TV be necessary to listen to music (this is a Profile 3 discussion, after all)? Not everyone has or watches TV

On #i, yes, but OP blamed the format itself. My point is those things could have been fixed.

On ii, other than at original set up, it shouldn't be necessary--only a choice. '

OK there is one other group smaller and crazier than the nutcases here, and those are the people who don't own or watch TV. Seriously if I were in this business I would be very concerned about going full throttle forward on an audio only BD standard. I would opt for standard BD with the choice of full menus or stripped-down playability--if I could make it work, of course.

 

[timbre4]

DVD-A still absolutely works functionally and you can re-name it what you like. You can call it MLP or now Dolby TrueHD but it's largely the same under the hood. The record labels were the true sinners because they didn't believe or seriously commit. iPod's arrival admittedly hurt too.

I can still buy a few new titles (PT, Crimson, hell yes) and now I can actually make my own with a $50 product. I love Blu Ray but it's not delivering music to me or giving me a platform for 5.1 mixes for my own music. When I can do that, I'll consider moving on. Right now it works.

 

[ted_b]

There's a certain amount of vested interest here Neil, as you make your living in DVD-A production and don't sound too keen on the cost of tooling-up for BD; it's always a good time to buy when you talk to the estate agent!

I've tried and tried with DVD-A, and I give up -- it's fundamentally-compromised as a format in its ties to the DVD-V architecture. I have access to DW Chrome and SurCode for home authoring, but the vast majority of players are just unusable in navigational terms. I don't know about you, but I don't want or need a TV turned on when I listen to music, yet there is no single player that I have found that will let me do simple things like enter random play or numerical track select without a blisteringly-confusing macro of button pushes, e.g., to play track 92 on my JVC EX-A1 I have to press '10' nine times, then '2', then 'Enter'. A CD player would ask only that you press '9' followed by '2'. Ditto random play on the Pioneer DV-610, where I must press 'Play Mode', then two clicks of the 'down arrow' to select 'Random', followed by the same cycle to select between 'Random Group' 'Random Track' or 'Random from all Groups'. Believe it or not, I have to go through the same laborious routine to select 'Random Off'. A CD player just requires that you press 'Random'. Try doing all that without a TV display. This is the problem: the fcked-up interface, and that's why DVD-A is dead. Let's not even go into the DVD-A track limit -- significant with redbook files, many hundred of which can fit on an MLP'd DVD-A, and the dreaded PUOs (Prevent User Operations, that we all know and hate from DVD-V [I once saw a DVD-A disc that said Forward Search was 'not allowed'!!]). SACD is hamstrung by digital-out limitations, as well as not being accessible to PCs, and is similarly finished. Like it or not, BD is the better alternative. Contrast all this with BD:

from the Pure audio site: "...Blu-ray combines the requisite storage capacity for surround and high resolution sound (24Bit/192kHz) with the uncomplicated handling of a standard compact disc (CD). This Blu-ray disc is configured in such a way that it can be played back with the simple functionality of a CD on any Blu-ray player. The user can, but is not obliged to, take advantage of the visual options (screen menu). In other words, the Pure Audio Blu-ray Disc is an autonomous medium: no TV is required to use it. The functionality is as easy as with CD: the user can navigate with the remote control and push the dedicated buttons for PLAY, STOP, SKIP and all other functions. The numeric keys directly access the corresponding track number and the desired audio stream can be selected by the coloured keys on the remote control. For example, press the red button for 5.1 DTS HD Master or yellow for 2.0 LPCM". All with no track limits and bags of space.

DVD-A had everything going for it and they screwed it up. Good riddance.

Davip,
Your quote is from the Nordic label 2L, not "pure audio". They have done a tremendous job pushing the envelope on BD audio, and have gone as far as including SACD discs with their BD releases, allowing for a plethora of HiRez playback options. But for me, the real telling thing (other than the incredible audio...they own 2 of the surround Grammy nominations this year) is their "best practice" that I hope the industry adopts: the use of the seldom-used red, green, blue and yellow remote buttons to easily pick among the HiDef audio codecs (DTS HD MA, TrueHD, PCM, etc). Makes audio-only navigation one step easier.

 

[Quadro-Action]

The Key for an success for surround music software is a) a sole system and b) an easy handling - like CD.(And of course a music programm, that many consumers would like to own with a disc for listening at home).

So the Pure Audio Blu Ray will fullfil point a) and point b). Another possibility would be a double sided Blu Ray or a two-sided disc like the Dual disc. One side stereo 2.0 PCM programm, the other side 5.1(4.0) surround PCM programm. Dolby and DTS with all theire merits can work further on with Blu Ray Video-Disc. Ideal would be one side usual CD 2-chanel information and for the Blu Ray side the Hirez quality plus surround. And then many new productions must offered only in the 2 different mixing versions. Not so halfhearted as by the known (and past) DualDisc. When stereo-listeners then have collected 10 oer 20 of those "CD's", they are gradual more and more curious, how the other (surround) side may sound. Especially by a 4 channel mix, they only need for a test only an often extant second stereo-set. But of course, finally all record firm must again work together - so like for CD, DVD and Blu Ray video. But is there enough fantasie by the firms? That is the main point.

Dietrich

 

[neil wilkes]

There's a certain amount of vested interest here Neil, as you make your living in DVD-A production and don't sound too keen on the cost of tooling-up for BD; it's always a good time to buy when you talk to the estate agent!

I've tried and tried with DVD-A, and I give up -- it's fundamentally-compromised as a format in its ties to the DVD-V architecture. I have access to DW Chrome and SurCode for home authoring, but the vast majority of players are just unusable in navigational terms. I don't know about you, but I don't want or need a TV turned on when I listen to music, yet there is no single player that I have found that will let me do simple things like enter random play or numerical track select without a blisteringly-confusing macro of button pushes, e.g., to play track 92 on my JVC EX-A1 I have to press '10' nine times, then '2', then 'Enter'. A CD player would ask only that you press '9' followed by '2'. Ditto random play on the Pioneer DV-610, where I must press 'Play Mode', then two clicks of the 'down arrow' to select 'Random', followed by the same cycle to select between 'Random Group' 'Random Track' or 'Random from all Groups'. Believe it or not, I have to go through the same laborious routine to select 'Random Off'. A CD player just requires that you press 'Random'. Try doing all that without a TV display. This is the problem: the fcked-up interface, and that's why DVD-A is dead. Let's not even go into the DVD-A track limit -- significant with redbook files, many hundred of which can fit on an MLP'd DVD-A, and the dreaded PUOs (Prevent User Operations, that we all know and hate from DVD-V [I once saw a DVD-A disc that said Forward Search was 'not allowed'!!]). SACD is hamstrung by digital-out limitations, as well as not being accessible to PCs, and is similarly finished. Like it or not, BD is the better alternative. Contrast all this with BD:

from the Pure audio site: "...Blu-ray combines the requisite storage capacity for surround and high resolution sound (24Bit/192kHz) with the uncomplicated handling of a standard compact disc (CD). This Blu-ray disc is configured in such a way that it can be played back with the simple functionality of a CD on any Blu-ray player. The user can, but is not obliged to, take advantage of the visual options (screen menu). In other words, the Pure Audio Blu-ray Disc is an autonomous medium: no TV is required to use it. The functionality is as easy as with CD: the user can navigate with the remote control and push the dedicated buttons for PLAY, STOP, SKIP and all other functions. The numeric keys directly access the corresponding track number and the desired audio stream can be selected by the coloured keys on the remote control. For example, press the red button for 5.1 DTS HD Master or yellow for 2.0 LPCM". All with no track limits and bags of space.

DVD-A had everything going for it and they screwed it up. Good riddance.

If I thought I could make it pay, I would spend what I needed to. I am looking at it again even now, but the costs - phew! "Estate agent" is a great analogy when you add it all up.....

Also, DW Chrome is not exactly a great package either - far too many bugs, problems & limitations caused by the Abstraction Layer system it uses, and I gave up fighting with it.
You can still make it work like a CD though - that's as easy as it gets. Takes me about 10 minutes to do a "CD style" DVDA in Sonic.
It's when you add the visuals that the fun starts.

I say again, DVD is by far the king of the replicated discs, outselling BD by hundreds of millions of units.
Well authored DVDA play on all players in one way or another, and origination costs are a fraction of Blu Ray's.

 

[Frantic]

As more and more people upgrade their movie systems to 5.1 or 7.1, it's up to us to let them borrow a disc of surround sound music. You all know what it's like to hear your favorite album in MC for the first time. I remember letting a friend borrow the Metallica DVD-A and watching them come in the next day with the "WOW" look on their face. We owe it to the format to infiltrate the minds (and ears) of the uninitiated. They'll thank us and, hopefully, we'll be able to convince the companies to provide more format to meet the increased demand that we'll create.

My new slogan: "Share a Disc - Create Demand"

My brother, I agree 100%.
I have been pushing the MC format for many years and I can count on one hand those that were influenced enough to take the plunge. I use that term intentionally as I compare us to those that own a lavish swimming pool. Many friends want to come over and experience it, but have little desire to install one of their own. We are a small niche and probably will remain that way. That is OK though as it makes us all very special!

 

[neil wilkes]

I have been looking into this "Profile 3.0" setup.
Currently, the vast majority of players on the market & already sold will not play these discs.
"Pure Audio Blu Ray" is a marketing name devised by MSM studios. They author using Scenarist BD Professional, with the BD-J extensions - authoring this is - and I quote from those who know - "not for the faint hearted" and "requires some intense specialist programming" - so read for that "bloody expensive".

 

[Audi A3]

I have been looking into this "Profile 3.0" setup.
Currently, the vast majority of players on the market & already sold will not play these discs.
"Pure Audio Blu Ray" is a marketing name devised by MSM studios. They author using Scenarist BD Professional, with the BD-J extensions - authoring this is - and I quote from those who know - "not for the faint hearted" and "requires some intense specialist programming" - so read for that "bloody expensive".

Can you explain what profile 3.0 more accurately is?

 

[wanners]

I'm sorry, but it would just be bad idea to do pure audio BD. It would confuse the public; 4 out of 5 dentists would get the disc home, and if it played at all, they'd say--" this isn't blu-ray, there isn't any video,, WTF?!!?."

Go on Amazon and see how many people bought DVD-As and thought they didn't get a DVD because there weren't any pretty moving pictures. Shouldn't we avoid a repeat of that?

Don't do it

 

[ArnoldLayne]

I have to agree with Neil Willkes that it doesn't make much sense to invent a new format so expensive that only Snoop-Doggy-Dog's and Lady Ga-Ga's sales figures would justify a surround release. If the industry really wanted to promote culture, they could easily do it in a different way with existing formats, namely BD5 and BD9. These are discs with blu-ray files and folder structure but recorded on a normal DVD. They can have a basic, blu-ray menu and the authoring is not so complicated. There is even already freeware available that can be used for this. BD5 and BD9 discs works on many (if not all) existing blu-ray players and can contain hi-rez surround. The format is so good that there are now quite a few DVD-A to BD5 transfers floating around. Yet again the industry is missing the train, big corporations' and license holders' interests are more important than culture. A true shame, IMHO.

 

[dobyblue]

I have been looking into this "Profile 3.0" setup.
Currently, the vast majority of players on the market & already sold will not play these discs.
"Pure Audio Blu Ray" is a marketing name devised by MSM studios. They author using Scenarist BD Professional, with the BD-J extensions - authoring this is - and I quote from those who know - "not for the faint hearted" and "requires some intense specialist programming" - so read for that "bloody expensive".

There isn't going to be a profile 3.0 set-up for discs. Profile 3.0 is for players and it is very UNLIKELY that anything will come of it.
The most likely scenario is BD25 and BD50 discs authored identically to the way they are now. A movie can play immediately upon putting it in just like several Warner discs...so too can an audio disc. You don't want the high resolution 5.1 track? Hit menu, select something else. Want your disc to start off on a fancy pants menu? Author it that way.

It will be identical to the way the current Blu-ray Audio discs are done, like the Ghost I-IV from NIN, The Pixies, Tom Petty, etc., etc., etc.

The BDA aren't interested in approving any new format that will render discs incompatible with current full profile players.

 

[Quadro-Action]

I have red today in a forum, that Sony music will releas this year 10 Pure Audio Blu Ray's. Of course we will have hope, that this will be together also those Audio BD's with a surround sound. But when one of the big company's will take over the Pure Audio Blu Ray, then is awaiting, that other software firms will follow.

Dietrich

 

[Audi A3]

Do you have a link to the forum ?

 

[dobyblue]

Yes I'd love to read about that too please. It is Sony Music meaning rock/pop titles?

 

[Quadro-Action]

In the meantime I have heard, that the 10 Pure Audio Blu Ray's are an result from the cooperation from MSM Studios Munich together with Sony Germany. It should be an repertoire of international artist. But also the Sony headquarter Europe in London must say ok - which we hope so.
The Source ist the german web-side www.multichannel-professional.de. That is of course also an invitation fur us (me) to tell Sony, that a stereo Pure Audio Blu Ray is noth enough - a surround mix must be included.

Dietrich

 

[dobyblue]

Let's hope international artist means Pearl Jam, Stone Roses, The Verve, DMB, Zeppelin, something like that, and not David Hasselhoff, hahaha.

 

[ArnoldLayne]

Hmm, a strange coincidence... my last surround purchase (Jienat - Mira) was authored for BD by MSM...

 

[Quadro-Action]

Important ist, that this international artists means music not (again) fo a niche or special interesses, but for the taste of many consumers.

Dietrich

 

[dobyblue]

Agree 100% with you Dietrich...I was just trying to be funny.

 

[neil wilkes]

MSM Studios know what they are doing.
Their format "Pure Audio Blu Ray" is their own code, utilizing the Java capabilities of all players and as such these discs will play on every player existing (including PS3) with no modifications required. Authoring these titles is expensive (the cost of doing up to 1 CD length alone is more than the cost of a full DVD-A/V title) but what is now happening seems to show some promise.
The format has been given an AES standard now. AES is the Audio Engineering Society, and the format is now officially AES21id.

See http://www.pureaudio-bluray.com/ for more details