CD-4 - The thin line between success and failure, but still in the fight!

[edisonbaggins]

i think you need a different stylus or possibly ditch the cart altogether?

i think "Lo" would be for high output carts like ceramic/crystal etc. and "Hi" would be for Moving Magnet, like yours

And ADC ZLM is on the QQ recommended list...

 

[Sonik Wiz]

And ADC ZLM is on the QQ recommended list...

I kinda lost track of the other CD-4 cartridge thread but IIRC it was Chucky that suggested this having never actually tried it with CD-4. I wouldn't expect a stylus with "modified elliptical" per @Quad D I to have high expectations for it. At any rate there were plenty other suggestions from first hand successful users with CD-4 that might be worth reconsidering.

 

[edisonbaggins]

I kinda lost track of the other CD-4 cartridge thread but IIRC it was Chucky that suggested this having never actually tried it with CD-4. I wouldn't expect a stylus with "modified elliptical" per @Quad D I to have high expectations for it. At any rate there were plenty other suggestions from first hand successful users with CD-4 that might be worth reconsidering.

It's not that I'm not willing to "reconsider".
ADC ZLM is also listed as made for CD-4.
I am expressing some frustration.

 

[fredblue]

Have to be careful with this method, it can lead to too low fronts volume.

really? how?

 

[edisonbaggins]

really? how?

If you don't plug the fronts back in!

 

[fredblue]

If you don't plug the fronts back in!

haha.. yeah, that's one way that method wouldn't work!

 

[fredblue]

And ADC ZLM is on the QQ recommended list...

oh really! do you know who recommended it?

 

[edisonbaggins]

oh really! do you know who recommended it?

I don't. Regardless, it's also listed in catalogs of the time, as CD-4 capable.
I'll make you all a proposition. Send me the cart and stylus you swear by. If it's an improvement I'll happily reimburse you.

 

[fredblue]

I kinda lost track of the other CD-4 cartridge thread but IIRC it was Chucky that suggested this having never actually tried it with CD-4. I wouldn't expect a stylus with "modified elliptical" per @Quad D I to have high expectations for it. At any rate there were plenty other suggestions from first hand successful users with CD-4 that might be worth reconsidering.

we all know Ellipticals are not recommended for CD-4. Baggy should ditch it for a Shibata or MicroLine (etc.)

then he needs to very carefully set it up.

then he should prepare a nice big garbage bag to put it all in ready for when the 99th record in 100 starts going sandpapery out of nowhere and you just want to put your fist through the turntable!

 

[Quad D]

really? how?

Past a certain point the separation adjustment does nothing but reduces fronts volume (separation is already maxed well before). Disclaimer: I only used Sansui seperators, maybe others work differently. I know I was never able to do it well by just listening to the rear speakers.

 

[fredblue]

I don't. Regardless, it's also listed in catalogs of the time, as CD-4 capable.
I'll make you all a proposition. Send me the cart and stylus you swear by. If it's an improvement I'll happily reimburse you.

i imagine they meant its a CD-4 capable cart when used with a Shibata or Line Contact stylus and not an Elliptical?

oh i swear by many of them!

to Hell with that AT440!

man, i hate the AT15S!

and as for the 4MD-10x..
well, i don't have the expletives required!!

 

[Quad D]

It's not that I'm not willing to "reconsider".
ADC ZLM is also listed as made for CD-4.
I am expressing some frustration.

Tonearm and turntable wires can have a large effect if they are high enough in capacitance, reduces the signal level at the demodulator and if eliptical stylus already has reduced ability to pick up the carrier, this can push it bellow the threshold for a success. In other words, turntable has to be also CD-4 capable.

 

[edisonbaggins]

i imagine they meant its a CD-4 capable cart when used with a Shibata or Line Contact stylus and not an Elliptical?

oh i swear by many of them!

to Hell with that AT440!

man, i hate the AT15S!

and as for the 4MD-10x..
well, i don't have the expletives required!!

I def want to try a shibata stylus.
Funny thing is, when I've asked for advice about which stylii go with which carts, etc. advice hasn't exactly flowed forth.
The ADC cart came with my new TT. So, awesome.
Works great on Doors Best Of. Cool.
So... if anyone knows of a killer shibata that is compatible with the ADC cart, pray tell!

 

[edisonbaggins]

And yes, a forum search reveals that @chucky3042 is nuts about his ZLM.

 

[Sonik Wiz]

we all know Ellipticals are not recommended for CD-4. Baggy shouldn't ditch it for a Shibata or MicroLine (etc.)

then he needs to very carefully set it up.

then he should prepare a nice big garbage bag to put it all in ready for when the 99th record in 100 starts going sandpapery out of nowhere and you just want to put your fist through the turntable!

As I said @chucky3042 suggested it here in post #6:
https://www.quadraphonicquad.com/fo...dge-stylus-recommendations.32726/#post-640816
One of the things not discussed much is the total bandwidth that needs to be handled by the phono cart. Most everyone looks at that magical number 30kHz carrier frequency & we think (hope) since X brand cart makes it to 23kHz mabe it can squaek out to 30. But it's overlooked that this carrier signal is frequency modulated around a total range of 18kHz to 45kHz. So really that's what makes it such a crap shoot.

I can not find any legacy main stream articles supporting the ADC ZLM as CD-4 compatible. I did find that it is a more like a Shibata stylus than elliptical, which of course is the same category AT Microline would fit into. But looking at this freq response chart of the ZLM I wouldn't expect it to go to the nether regions of 45kHz:

https://www.gammaelectronics.xyz/high-fidelity_mag_1977-11_adc-zlm.html

 

[fredblue]

Past a certain point the separation adjustment does nothing but reduces fronts volume (separation is already maxed well before). Disclaimer: I only used Sansui seperators, maybe others work differently. I know I was never able to do it well by just listening to the rear speakers.

ok well i have no clue about Sansui CD-4 equipment.

however, i've run hundreds of CD-4 records through three outboard demodulators over the last 5-ish years;

- a JVC 4DD-5 demodulator,
- a Grundig Quadro demodulator (with the feted CD4-392 chip) and
- a Marantz CD-400B demodulator..
and i've never had the Front channel levels diminish with any of them.

if you turn the Separation controls right down to nothing, you get the "difference signal" (muted kinda hollow sounding) but turning them up above that you start to get more clarity and then there's a point, usually somewhere between 9 and 11 o'clock on the controls, depending on cart, demodulator and so on, where you hit that sweet spot of cancelled out Front Channel elements in the Rears.

if you compare the demodulated CD-4 to the discrete tape, its often astonishing how close the disc gets to the tape, in terms of front to back channel balances, separation, etc.

 

[edisonbaggins]

Tonearm and turntable wires can have a large effect if they are high enough in capacitance, reduces the signal level at the demodulator and if eliptical stylus already has reduced ability to pick up the carrier, this can push it bellow the threshold for a success. In other words, turntable has to be also CD-4 capable.

Mine is...

 

[edisonbaggins]

As I said @chucky3042 suggested it here in post #6:
https://www.quadraphonicquad.com/fo...dge-stylus-recommendations.32726/#post-640816
One of the things not discussed much is the total bandwidth that needs to be handled by the phono cart. Most everyone looks at that magical number 30kHz carrier frequency & we think (hope) since X brand cart makes it to 23kHz mabe it can squaek out to 30. But it's overlooked that this carrier signal is frequency modulated around a total range of 18kHz to 45kHz. So really that's what makes it such a crap shoot.

I can not find any legacy main stream articles supporting the ADC ZLM as CD-4 compatible. I did find that it is a more like a Shibata stylus than elliptical, which of course is the same category AT Microline would fit into. But looking at this freq response chart of the ZLM I wouldn't expect it to go to the nether regions of 45kHz:

https://www.gammaelectronics.xyz/high-fidelity_mag_1977-11_adc-zlm.html

Post in thread 'CD-4 Cartridge Stylus Recommendations' CD-4 Cartridge Stylus Recommendations

 

[fredblue]

And yes, a forum search reveals that @chucky3042 is nuts about his ZLM.

yes that's divine but has he tested it on hundreds of CD-4 records!

 

[edisonbaggins]

ok well i have no clue about Sansui CD-4 equipment.

however, i've run hundreds of CD-4 records through three outboard demodulators over the last 5-ish years;

- a JVC 4DD-5 demodulator,
- a Grundig Quadro demodulator (with the feted CD4-392 chip) and
- a Marantz CD-400B demodulator..
and i've never had the Front channel levels diminish with any of them.

if you turn the Separation controls right down to nothing, you get the "difference signal" (muted kinda hollow sounding) but turning them up above that you start to get more clarity and then there's a point, usually somewhere between 9 and 11 o'clock on the controls, depending on cart, demodulator and so on, where you hit that sweet spot of cancelled out Front Channel elements in the Rears.

if you compare the demodulated CD-4 to the discrete tape, its often astonishing how close the disc gets to the tape, in terms of front to back channel balances, separation, etc.

Right about 9 O'clock for my Lafayette, with the Marantz TT, ADC, etc.