Computer Based Discreet Surround Playback – Useful Information and Links

[KLIM]

Since many people on this board may be new to using a computer for discreet surround sound playback, I figured I should post some related information. Most of the information in this thread is related to Windows-based computers.

Lossless Compression for Discreet Surround

For those people who are unfamiliar with audio file compression techniques or for those who think MP3 when compressed audio is mentioned, there is a type of file compression that does not degrade the sound quality of the original music ripped to your computer hard drive. The concept of lossless file compression is very similar to “zip” files where once a file is uncompressed, the output is bit-for-bit accurate when compared to the original “zipped” item before data compression. DVD-Audio uses a lossless compression called Meridian Lossless Packing (MLP). The formats listed below are very similar to MLP, but most are completely free to use.


Free Lossless Audio Codec (FLAC)

WAVPACK – Hybrid Lossless Audio Compression

Windows Media – Lossless

Lossless Format Comparison

Discreet Surround Player Software

Foobar 2000 (IMHO – The best and most flexible audio player for Windows)

Windows Media Player

WinAmp

Audio Interfaces for Discreet Surround Playback

Being an audiophile and a music producer, I take my playback hardware very seriously. For those first getting into computer based discreet surround playback, you may want to buy the cheapest sound card you can find. As with most things in life, you get what you pay for. You can spend a few hundred dollars and get good sounding results, or you can spend thousands of dollars for the ultimate performance.

I have experience with a few of these audio interfaces, but please research and listen to any audio interface you wish to purchase.

I have also omitted listing any firewire audio interfaces, as there seem to be new ones popping up every week. Companies like Lynx Studio, M-Audio, Echo, MOTU, Metric Halo, RME, Apogee, and PrismSound offer these devices that will range from approximately $300 (M-Audio Firewire 410) to $15,000 (PrismSound ADA-8XR w/ firewire card) with most being in the $700 - $1000 range.

Note: Many new computer motherboards have on-board audio interfaces that offer six discreet channels capable of 24bit / 96k of playback. Using the on-board will allow you to hear discreet surround sound, but usually with not the greatest quality. Most (if not all) on-board sound cards are very noisy (which makes 24 bit audio playback pointless....the S/N ratio of these devices are very poor) due to the inhospitable environment on the motherboard where audio quality must take a back seat to things that make your computer function properly. Any of the options listed below will offer superior quality to the current generation of on-board audio interfaces.

Example “Entry” Level Audio Interface – Desktop <$200

The audio interfaces below are low cost options that are good sounding cards for the money, but do not have all the features an audiophile would think as optimal. The cards in this price range are more “general consumer” and are usually meant to be connected to computer speakers…..note the use of 1/8 TRS connectors on the back of the cards.

M-Audio – Revolution 7.1

M-Audio – Revolution 5.1

Creative Labs – Sound Blaster X-Fi XtremeMusic

Creative Labs – Audigy2 ZS


Example “Mid” Level Audio Interface – Desktop $300 - $1000

The audio interfaces below are great sounding interfaces that are more pro-sumer and professional grade audio interfaces. These interfaces will have at a bare minimum of unbalanced outputs on RCA connectors. Most audio interfaces in this category have “break-out” boxes and balanced connections for use with “pro” audio equipment. These can still be used with your existing surround audio systems with the use of the correct cables.
M-Audio – Delta 1010

M-Audio – Delta 1010LT

Echo – Gina 3G

Echo – Layla 3G

RME – Multiface II (must be used with either a PCI or PCMCIA card)
(Note: I am currently using the original Multiface with the PCMCIA card with my laptop at home…I am very pleased with the sound of this system)

Lynx Studio – LynxTWO “Model B”


Example “Top” Level Audio Interface – Desktop > $1000

When you are willing to spend this kind of money, I recommend that you use a combination of a digital audio interface and a separate DA converter box.

Companies like Lynx, Sek’d, and RME offer digital I/O cards that can interface to external professional and audiophile grade DA converters…..these cards alone will be priced similar to the “mid” grade systems listed above. I’ve used both the Sek’d Prodiff 88 (8in/8out AES3) and the Lynx AES16 (16in/16out AES3) cards and both work extremely well.

Companies like Apogee, PrismSound, and dCS make incredible sounding digital to analog converters that are used in many professional recording and mastering studios that should provide the pinnacle of computer based discreet surround sound playback.

If you are looking to go completely computer based, you may want to consider a professional monitor controller with built-in DA conversion. I have experience with using a Lynx AES16 in conjunction with a Grace Design m906 controller and am extremely pleased with the results….I highly recommend this option to anyone.

Grace m906 Monitor Controller



Other General Links

Wavewizard Software – Used for manipulating wav files and much more

Hydrogen Audio – Great audio technology website

Note: This thread will evolve as time goes on and I gather more useful information.

Edit #1 - Added comment about on-board audiointerfaces.

 

[winopener]

Q: nowadays any new pc has a audio board that supports 6ch and 24/96 playback, even if the quality is sometimes *very* questionable.
What i wonder is: other that 6ch playback, possible with Windows Media Player, WinDVD and similar players, there are *editors* that can interface with all the 6 channels of these soundboards? Usually a wave editor see only the front stereo pair.

 

[KLIM]

Q: nowadays any new pc has a audio board that supports 6ch and 24/96 playback, even if the quality is sometimes *very* questionable.
What i wonder is: other that 6ch playback, possible with Windows Media Player, WinDVD and similar players, there are *editors* that can interface with all the 6 channels of these soundboards? Usually a wave editor see only the front stereo pair.

I updated my original post to address on-board audio interfaces...

As far as the wave editor "seeing" the front stereo pair only, I believe that would be a limitation of the audio cards driver and not the software. Most multi-channel wav editors (if not all) allow for the use of very common driver types like ASIO, MME, DirectSound, Core Audio (for Macs). With that said, multichannel wav editors are typically "professional" audio applications....therefore, I would guess that they are designed to be used with “professional” audio interfaces and the drivers that they use.


Could you be more specific as to which multichannel wav editor you are reffering?

 

[winopener]

Audition, Wavelab etc. All of them relies on the good old "stereo wave" hardware idea, and now all these boards supports the Wave-Ex format for playback only.
I do agree that it's better to use a pro sound card with classic Xin-Xout rack or box (i do it) but there is also the possibility where there is no need for a MCH-in card and the only thing really needed is a 6-ch output, that is already there on the board.
Think, for example, about Upmix from stereo 2 surround (4,5,6 ch). You start with a stereo wave that most of the time is already digitized: then you can apply plugin and effects to create the other channels but... how to monitor them for a nice surround balance?
If this was supported it will take surround music one step further: since the major aren't doing much for it, kids could play with stereo and create their own mixes with any pc. The results could vary a lot but it will show a interest in 6ch music, and that will be very good.

 

[KLIM]

I don't work for a software developer, so I can't answer why they don't use the Multichannel Directsound2 driver for playback in those apps....still, using that driver seems completely feasible.

One other thing though, the apps you mentioned are not priced "kid friendly". The cost of entry into surround music production is also not very kid friendly...with the cost of a computer, software, and 5 monitors + sub...the cost of a "pro" audio interface seems pretty insignificant as it is just a small percentage of the total investment. I understand that money doesn't grow on trees, but a decent audio interface is a great (IMHO-necessary) investment for people who want to work in surround and at high resolution.

 

[BananaSlug]

Today I received the Logitech z-550 5.1 speakers. I'm pretty impressed with the sound quality and will write up something as I figure it all out. One thing I'm (still) having problems with is playing 44.1/16 DTS and DD audio streams from files on my hard drive. I'm think that there is a software issue that is causing me to get static out of the anolog outputs - though if I insert a DTS audio cd it plays fine. I was hoping that the digital out of my sound card would work but as near as I've been able to discern over these last 6 or 7 hours is that my Turtle Beach Catalina converts everything to 48khz. Has anybody here sucessfully sent a digital DTS or DD signal out from their Catalina? How about an M-Audio 5.1 revolution? (if all else fails throw money at the problem)

 

[BananaSlug]

O.K. well I will keep this thread up to date in case someone needs it at some time. To the best of my knowledge to output a dts.wav (this is a 44.1/16 file) you need a bit perfect sound card - one that doesn't screw with the data stream. This seems to be something that is accomplished with 'kernel streaming' or by using ASIO drivers. I tried a driver called asio4all with no luck and tried foobar2000's kernel streaming with the same results. I have read where many of the Creative sound cards only output 48khz digital signals (hardware limitation) and I wonder if my Catalina is doing the same. However, I have managed to play dts.wav files by changing the extention to .dts and playing with Foobar2000 through the analog outputs. This, however, doesn't work with ac3 files. Not knowing if the m-audio revolution 5.1 will do any better I am sticking with my sound card - that money seems better spent on the new David Bowie DVD-As. At least for now. I will update this if I figure anything else out. I 'm self trained in computers and have always done everything myself, I must say that this has been the steepest learning curve and the most frustrating adventure that I have run into yet. But, here I am listening to 5.1 on my computer. This frees up my home theater for my daughter to watch Sesame Street. I'm calling it a victory

 

[Ge Someone]

.. I have managed to play dts.wav files by changing the extention to .dts and playing with Foobar2000 through the analog outputs. This, however, doesn't work with ac3 files.

Look for foo_ac3.dll , this will play DD 2.0 and 5.1 files with file extension .ac3. As an alternative there is a "special installer" with a load of third party plug-ins.

 

[BananaSlug]

I've got foo_ac3.dll What I can't play is a ac3.wav renamed xxx.ac3 - which I really would not expect to play anyways. Only, it does work with dts.wav I've only a few ac3.wav files anyways - some Diatonis free downloads that have been sitting on my computer for ages. I'll play with it some more though to see if I've missed something.