Dolby Atmos 7.2.2 vs 5.2.4

[Tornado Red]

I have a question or two about this, and might have a follow up question about gear, so thought I'd post here. Is it a general consensus that 5.2.4 is a preferable set up to 7.2.2? And if so, does that go for music and movies? I currently have a fairly new receiver that will do Dolby Atmos, but only side surrounds, rear surrounds and front heights. My rear surrounds are in the ceiling and are actually a little in front of my listening position, I'm thinking they'd be in a perfect spot for rear heights. Would I be better off using these as rear heights, keeping in mind I'll lose rear surrounds? Issue is my receiver will only do rear heights with external amplification. If anybody would like to chime in, I'm all ears.

 

[HomerJAU]

The ideal listening position for spacial is to be in the centre of your ceiling speaker array. If you can’t do that because you only have two heights then close to directly overhead is probably next best and configure them as Middle Heights, then all height encoded info goes to those two and not pushed to fronts or rears etc

There is still a lot of 7.1 mixed movies. If you can’t get in the middle of 4 heights then maybe go with 7.1.2 for now and plan for 7.1.4 in the future, even if it’s only a dream upgrade

I still think for best surround you need at least one pair behind the listening position. Anyway, that’s a starting point and you know your room layout. Others will chime in.

 

[Albert Dagger]

It would be interesting to test the differences between 2 and 4 height speakers by commenting on Atmos mixes that we know well.

For example, I have a 5.0.2 system and I know that in In the Court of the Crimson King, the flute moves around towards the end (4 minute mark), it goes from the right height to the left height and then to the front speakers (If I remember correctly). How is the flute perceived by a person listening on a x.x.4 system?

Another example could be Kiss - Destroyer. Detroit Rock City has some nice moments at the 3 minute mark, with car sounds moving from left to right via the height speakers. I still perceive the movement front/rear because of my 5 bed speakers, but is it different for someone with a x.x.4?

Kraftwerk's Boing Boom Tschak, from the 3D Catalogue. That's another good test, or even Tour de France (at 0:50 mark). The sound effects alternate height and rear speakers, then also add front speakers. It's the entire rhythmic section that is activated before the beginning of the song a few seconds later. How is this for a x.x.4 system?

There must be dozens of other good examples, but I think we should share our perceived experience to assess whether 4 heights make a huge difference or not. I feel that 2 height speakers is not exactly like stereo vs quad, it's a bit more than stereo because the 5 or 7 bed speakers are also part of the game.

 

[Tornado Red]

The ideal listening position for spacial is to be in the centre of your ceiling speaker array. If you can’t do that because you only have two heights then close to directly overhead is probably next best and configure them as Middle Heights, then all height encoded info goes to those two and not pushed to fronts or rears etc

There is still a lot of 7.1 mixed movies. If you can’t get in the middle of 4 heights then maybe go with 7.1.2 for now and plan for 7.1.4 in the future, even if it’s only a dream upgrade

I still think for best surround you need at least one pair behind the listening position. Anyway, that’s a starting point and you know your room layout. Others will chime in.

Thanks for that. I recall reading on another thread that you were under the weather with covid, hope you're feeling better soon Yeah, sitting in the centre of 4 ceiling speakers is a no go at my place, and I guess a lot of rooms that have to put their seating at the back of the room against a wall. As for the gear question, the receiver I just picked up is an Onkyo TX-RZ840 that won't power the rear heights, even though I have a 3 channel amp for L/C/R. The receiver that this replaced is a Pioneer SC-61 Elite which still works fine. What I was wondering is, can I use the Pioneer as a 2 channel amp to power the rear heights? Not using it anymore and I have a cabinet next to the new one not in use.

 

[HomerJAU]

Check your Onkyo manual. My Denon AVR can reassign it’s internal amplifiers and external line outputs (remap). You may be able to do something similar. My Denon has line outs (rca).

I have two external power amps (one stereo and one a 3 channel) doing my 5.0 channels. The Denon AVR’s amps do the 4 heights and 2 rears to get me to 7.1.4.

Before I had the two external power amps I used my old Arcam AVR to do my main 5 (fronts + sides) and my Denon did all others in my 7.1.4 (my Denon AVR has 9 amps, need 11 to do 7.1.4). That worked well as the Arcam had better amplifiers to drive my full range main 5.

 

[Tornado Red]

I want to do something similar to what you have, keep my 3 channel amp but instead of buying a new stereo amp, thought I could save some cash by utilizing the Pioneer. The Pioneer has a CD/Assignable input that I thought I could use from the Onkyo pre outs. Also should be able to use the 12 volt trigger to wake up the Pioneer, then I could keep it behind the door of a large cabinet and have it boot up every time I started things. The issue with my set up is that it's very hard to pull devices from the shelving to experiment, but that's likely what I'll have to do. I'm getting too old for this chit

 

[marpow]

I have a question or two about this, and might have a follow up question about gear, so thought I'd post here. Is it a general consensus that 5.2.4 is a preferable set up to 7.2.2? And if so, does that go for music and movies? I currently have a fairly new receiver that will do Dolby Atmos, but only side surrounds, rear surrounds and front heights. My rear surrounds are in the ceiling and are actually a little in front of my listening position, I'm thinking they'd be in a perfect spot for rear heights. Would I be better off using these as rear heights, keeping in mind I'll lose rear surrounds? Issue is my receiver will only do rear heights with external amplification. If anybody would like to chime in, I'm all ears.

Your questions are very hard to answer as it seems to me not a lot can change with your layout. I will try to be helpful. Your room layout, stuff in your room and who you share your room are all very important.
If listening to surround sound with at best rears in the ceiling and a little in front of you, your starting at a big disadvantage.
My first question is, can you ditch the idea of Atmos listening and get your foundation squared away? If you have a wall behind your listening spot and you cannot put your rear surrounds behind you at all, can you get your rear surrounds at least facing your ears from right and left sides?
I honestly think trying to turn your system into Atmos listening without proper speaker layout, regardless of AVR and Amps your going to short change yourself. You would get a way bigger WOW with proper speaker placement in a 5.1 configuration then with a makeshift Atmos system.
I have 5 speakers on the floor, 3 subs (2 are LFE) and 4 ceiling speakers for Atmos, my room is 12' X 14' and think it is good.
I have listened to countless Atmos music and movies, Atmos is not the big driver, unlike the floor speakers with the 5.1 surround is way more important to a Dolby Atmos experience. Some 90 minute movies may have great 5.1 surround and 10 minutes of actual Atmos in the heights. Some music labeled as ATMOS is so weak in the heights I wonder what is even the point. Many times of my 4 height speakers the information can be working only the two front or two rear heights and sometimes all four. Of course there are great experiences in Atmos, but you cannot have a great experience in Atmos unless your foundation (floor) speakers are working well.
I sympathize with you having your gear in cabinets, I used to have that and I agree with you 100% it is really hard to switch and pull interconnects and equipment when in cabinets.
I don't think you have an amp problem as you have enough gear.
I am sure I didn't help too much, but feel free to ask more questions and clarify in the event I misunderstood any of your circumstance.

 

[Albert Dagger]

Your questions are very hard to answer as it seems to me not a lot can change with your layout. I will try to be helpful. Your room layout, stuff in your room and who you share your room are all very important.
If listening to surround sound with at best rears in the ceiling and a little in front of you, your starting at a big disadvantage.
My first question is, can you ditch the idea of Atmos listening and get your foundation squared away? If you have a wall behind your listening spot and you cannot put your rear surrounds behind you at all, can you get your rear surrounds at least facing your ears from right and left sides?
I honestly think trying to turn your system into Atmos listening without proper speaker layout, regardless of AVR and Amps your going to short change yourself. You would get a way bigger WOW with proper speaker placement in a 5.1 configuration then with a makeshift Atmos system.
I have 5 speakers on the floor, 3 subs (2 are LFE) and 4 ceiling speakers for Atmos, my room is 12' X 14' and think it is good.
I have listened to countless Atmos music and movies, Atmos is not the big driver, unlike the floor speakers with the 5.1 surround is way more important to a Dolby Atmos experience. Some 90 minute movies may have great 5.1 surround and 10 minutes of actual Atmos in the heights. Some music labeled as ATMOS is so weak in the heights I wonder what is even the point. Many times of my 4 height speakers the information can be working only the two front or two rear heights and sometimes all four. Of course there are great experiences in Atmos, but you cannot have a great experience in Atmos unless your foundation (floor) speakers are working well.
I sympathize with you having your gear in cabinets, I used to have that and I agree with you 100% it is really hard to switch and pull interconnects and equipment when in cabinets.
I don't think you have an amp problem as you have enough gear.
I am sure I didn't help too much, but feel free to ask more questions and clarify in the event I misunderstood any of your circumstance.

That's so true. Getting the 5 bed channels in the right position is incredibly important. Getting a sketched plan of the room from the OP would help give more precise suggestions. For my home set up, I did plan/section and modelled everything in 3D to get as close as possible to the dolby standards, and then consider how I want the living room furniture as a consequence, informed by my hi-fi requirements.

 

[Tornado Red]

Here’s a few photos of the layout. About 19’ wide by 12’ deep and is obviously a multi purpose room, which doesn’t really help my issue. Views are from the left and right sides of the room, and one from my seating position. Rears in the ceiling are behind the circular grills you see (PSB Alpha B1). These are presently used as surround rears, and are the ones I was inquiring about to become rear heights. Side surrounds are Polk Monitor 75T, fronts are Polk A9 with A6 centre. Front heights on top of the cabinet are new with the receiver swap, Edifier P17. The front heights and centre channel are all tilted down towards the listener, it’s hard to see that in the photo. Thinking maybe I‘d be better off leaving the surround rears as is, and not making them height rears. Hard to cut new holes, move things around or apply something new when my wife wields a mean baseball bat.

 

[perzon57]

Here’s a few photos of the layout. About 19’ wide by 12’ deep and is obviously a multi purpose room, which doesn’t really help my issue. Views are from the left and right sides of the room, and one from my seating position. Rears in the ceiling are behind the circular grills you see (PSB Alpha B1). These are presently used as surround rears, and are the ones I was inquiring about to become rear heights. Side surrounds are Polk Monitor 75T, fronts are Polk A9 with A6 centre. Front heights on top of the cabinet are new with the receiver swap, Edifier P17. The front heights and centre channel are all tilted down towards the listener, it’s hard to see that in the photo. Thinking maybe I‘d be better off leaving the surround rears as is, and not making them height rears. Hard to cut new holes, move things around or apply something new when my wife wields a mean baseball bat.

I would try the PSB Alpha B1 as rear heights, I think it can be a good solution.

 

[Tornado Red]

I would try the PSB Alpha B1 as rear heights, I think it can be a good solution.

So I guess that's back to my original question, is it worth losing surround rears for heights?

 

[~dave~~wave~]

So I guess that's back to my original question, is it worth losing surround rears for heights?

Would that be a reversible experiment or not?

Everything in audio, as well as marriage, is a compromise.
You have a lovely space, count your blessings.

Easier said than done, particularly for me.
Especially hanging around this place reading about fortunate one-percenters or enthusiasts & their gear.

 

[perzon57]

So I guess that's back to my original question, is it worth losing surround rears for heights?

Yes I think so, to me at least.

 

[Tornado Red]

Would that be a reversible experiment or not?

Everything in audio, as well as marriage, is a compromise.
You have a lovely space, count your blessings.

Easier said than done, particularly for me.
Especially hanging around this place reading about fortunate one-percenters or enthusiasts & their gear.

Certainly a reversible effort I may try in the next week or two. Think I'll have a good listen to a couple of favourite Dolby Atmos movies/music over the next few days and I'll compare the same ones with the new configuration. Anyway, I'm just a retired schmuck on a fixed income, so I'd put myself more in the 'enthusiast' category than a 'one-percenter.' I've been trying to fix up this room for 15 years, and lots of things like speakers I've had 8-10 years or more. Money is an object or I would have bought a stereo amp rather than try to reuse my old receiver. Come to think of it, if I had the money I would have bought a better receiver that wouldn't give me the issues I'm having now.

 

[~dave~~wave~]

Certainly a reversible effort I may try in the next week or two. Think I'll have a good listen to a couple of favourite Dolby Atmos movies/music over the next few days and I'll compare the same ones with the new configuration. Anyway, I'm just a retired schmuck on a fixed income, so I'd put myself more in the 'enthusiast' category than a 'one-percenter.' I've been trying to fix up this room for 15 years, and lots of things like speakers I've had 8-10 years or more. Money is an object or I would have bought a stereo amp rather than try to reuse my old receiver. Come to think of it, if I had the money I would have bought a better receiver that wouldn't give me the issues I'm having now.

You & I are in the same general boat with many folks here.
Lucky to be in the position to have time & a little disposable income.
Enjoy the hobby & experimenting, especially after reading about new possibilities.

Funny, at this point in my life, I don't lust after other men's wives, expensive cars with atmos sound, houses, bank accounts...
Just their audio gear and disc collections.

 

[perzon57]

Certainly a reversible effort I may try in the next week or two. Think I'll have a good listen to a couple of favourite Dolby Atmos movies/music over the next few days and I'll compare the same ones with the new configuration. Anyway, I'm just a retired schmuck on a fixed income, so I'd put myself more in the 'enthusiast' category than a 'one-percenter.' I've been trying to fix up this room for 15 years, and lots of things like speakers I've had 8-10 years or more. Money is an object or I would have bought a stereo amp rather than try to reuse my old receiver. Come to think of it, if I had the money I would have bought a better receiver that wouldn't give me the issues I'm having now.

I think that's a good plan. I use a Parasound HCA 1000 for one set of heights as the AVR only have internal amp for one set. They can be had cheap used here, maybe even cheaper over there?

 

[Tornado Red]

I think that's a good plan. I use a Parasound HCA 1000 for one set of heights as the AVR only have internal amp for one set. They can be had cheap used here, maybe even cheaper over there?

A little pricey for me at this point.

 

[riskylogic]

Here’s a few photos of the layout. About 19’ wide by 12’ deep and is obviously a multi purpose room, which doesn’t really help my issue. Views are from the left and right sides of the room, and one from my seating position. Rears in the ceiling are behind the circular grills you see (PSB Alpha B1). These are presently used as surround rears, and are the ones I was inquiring about to become rear heights. Side surrounds are Polk Monitor 75T, fronts are Polk A9 with A6 centre. Front heights on top of the cabinet are new with the receiver swap, Edifier P17. The front heights and centre channel are all tilted down towards the listener, it’s hard to see that in the photo. Thinking maybe I‘d be better off leaving the surround rears as is, and not making them height rears. Hard to cut new holes, move things around or apply something new when my wife wields a mean baseball bat.

I have a similar room. The surround setup is basically 12' x 12'. I had ceiling speakers installed above the couch which I originally intended to use as the rears in a 5.1 setup. But then I decided that wasn't going to work for quad recordings so I added floor standing side surrounds and use the ceiling speakers for Atmos. No way to have speakers behind the couch.

I also have a 5.1 system in the living room with all ceiling speakers because that's all my wife would allow. Sounds terrible - I hardly ever use it.

 

[Audiowannabee]

Ive got polks also rti a7s front
Polk moniter 60s sides facing towards my sitting position no room to have rears they are sides
My 5.1 is great to my ears

Cant afford to upgrade to atmos as the last 2 years of BS has definitely taken its toll on my finances...oh well working myself towards poverty slowly one day at a time

But hey its ok ive got what ive got which is better than most who listen on a phone thru cheap $30 walmart earbuds

 

[Jeffrey Michael]

Here’s a few photos of the layout. About 19’ wide by 12’ deep and is obviously a multi purpose room, which doesn’t really help my issue. Views are from the left and right sides of the room, and one from my seating position. Rears in the ceiling are behind the circular grills you see (PSB Alpha B1). These are presently used as surround rears, and are the ones I was inquiring about to become rear heights. Side surrounds are Polk Monitor 75T, fronts are Polk A9 with A6 centre. Front heights on top of the cabinet are new with the receiver swap, Edifier P17. The front heights and centre channel are all tilted down towards the listener, it’s hard to see that in the photo. Thinking maybe I‘d be better off leaving the surround rears as is, and not making them height rears. Hard to cut new holes, move things around or apply something new when my wife wields a mean baseball bat.

Hi TR!

I was just looking at your photos. I don’t know if anyone has mentioned this but you need to have all loudspeakers pointing into the listening area. I’m not seeing this with your center and height speakers.