DVD Audio extractor ripping rears at different volume levels?

[B&W Driver]

AFAICT, he wants to compare the output levels of AC3 or DTS decoded directly off the disc , to the same track played from a ripped file. His initial impression was that the file playback level was lower than the direct.

There are quite a few variables involved that would have to be eliminated before a useful diagnosis could be made. He seems to have ripped the MLP version for starters, but is interested in the DTS. It's also (still!) unclear whether lossy decoding is being done by the Oppo or by a downstream AVR decoder (i.e., whether the Oppo output is set to 'raw' or 'PCM'). There will also be a setting in the Oppo to choose 'preferred' layer when loading a DVDA -- DVD or DVDA. We don't know what that is set to, though it seems perhaps to be 'DVD'? And of course there are likely channel level settings in the Oppo and AVR that could make some difference. Finally, I have no experience with hardware players + USB playback, so I can't speak to what settings might affect that, either.

As the posts were coming in at a fairly fast rate yesterday, I didn't get a good chance to really read this particular post. Once again, we're relatively new to ripping, recording and playback. In addition to the "nulling" I asked about in the last post (No. 80), I'd be more than happy to learn more about how to properly set up our Oppo 105D to take advantage of anything ripped from our physical media.

As I mentioned earlier, it is not my intention to frustrate anyone or be "unclear," especially with those who are trying to help...but I wouldn't be here if I was "up" on all of these acronyms and software. In short, I thought that, by employing the same exact audio gear (and the same settings) to playback the exact same music, albeit from two different sources -- DVD-A disc and digital FLAC files -- it would make for a fairly decent A/B test.

Our long term goal in this regard is to rip all of our physical music media to FLAC. Thus far, we've figured out how to rip our redbook/stereo CD music to FLAC. The next step was stereo SACD to FLAC and, now, we're trying to learn what we can about how to rip our DVD-A discs to FLAC. In the case of the Little Feat Kickin' It At The Barn DVD-A, we preferred DTS multichannel over Dolby, so, naturally, we were trying to rip DTS to FLAC. As the sound level of the FLAC files continues to be lower -- and the "dts" symbol is still not displayed on the Oppo's front panel -- we're still wondering what we actually ended up with. At first, I thought that I may have been setting up DVDAE incorrectly and, obviously, there was more to the interface than I thought, so it's great that I learned more about that here. Anyway, there were questions about our goals, so I hope that I've clarified that herein.

As ever, I look forward to learning more about this subject and I thank all of you for your time.

EDIT: There seem to be a couple of specific questions about our Oppo 105D contained in the quote (above), so I slowly went through the Oppo's video interface and I determined that, under the "Player Setup" heading, the "DVD-Audio Mode" is set to "DVD-Audio." As for the "Oppo Output" settings, I couldn't find anything in these menus that gave me a choice of "Raw" or "PCM." I will include photos of the Oppo menus in the following post, but, if someone knows how to determine more about the nuances of the Oppo setup, I'd love to learn more about it.

 

[B&W Driver]

Here is our Oppo 105D Setup Menu interface and the setup options that clearly pertain to audio...

 

[SeeMoreDigital]

Our long term goal in this regard is to rip all of our physical music media to FLAC. Thus far, we've figured out how to rip our redbook/stereo CD music to FLAC. The next step was stereo SACD to FLAC and, now, we're trying to learn what we can about how to rip our DVD-A discs to FLAC. In the case of the Little Feat Kickin' It At The Barn DVD-A, we preferred DTS multichannel over Dolby, so, naturally, we were trying to rip DTS to FLAC. As the sound level of the FLAC files continues to be lower -- and the "dts" symbol is still not displayed on the Oppo's front panel -- we're still wondering what we actually ended up with. At first, I thought that I may have been setting up DVDAE incorrectly and, obviously, there was more to the interface than I thought, so it's great that I learned more about that here. Anyway, there were questions about our goals, so I hope that I've clarified that herein.

When it comes to encoding DSD (from SACD) streams or mlp (from DVD-A) streams to FLAC or PCM.wav (for playback with my OPPO), nowadays I use 'FFmpeg.exe' with the following command lines: -

Encode DSD (from SACD) to FLAC (at 88.1Khz 24-bit)
ffmpeg -i input.dff -ar 88200 output.flac
ffmpeg -i input.dsf -ar 88200 output.flac

Encode DSD (from SACD) to PCM.wav (at 88.1Khz 24-bit)
ffmpeg -i input.dff -c:a pcm_s24le -ar 88200 output.wav

Encode mlp (from DVD-A) to FLAC
ffmpeg -i input.mlp output.flac

Encode mlp (from DVD-A) to PCM.wav
ffmpeg -i input.mlp -c:a pcm_s24le output.wav


Cheers

 

[marcb]

AFAICT, he wants to compare the output levels of AC3 or DTS decoded directly off the disc , to the same track played from a ripped file. His initial impression was that the file playback level was lower than the direct.

There are quite a few variables involved that would have to be eliminated before a useful diagnosis could be made. He seems to have ripped the MLP version for starters, but is interested in the DTS. It's also (still!) unclear whether lossy decoding is being done by the Oppo or by a downstream AVR decoder (i.e., whether the Oppo output is set to 'raw' or 'PCM'). There will also be a setting in the Oppo to choose 'preferred' layer when loading a DVDA -- DVD or DVDA. We don't know what that is set to, though it seems perhaps to be 'DVD'? And of course there are likely channel level settings in the Oppo and AVR that could make some difference. Finally, I have no experience with hardware players + USB playback, so I can't speak to what settings might affect that, either.

I understand what the OP is trying to do, but not what the OP is trying to accomplish. Why does the OP want to do this? As you imply, it can be apples and oranges - DTS vs MLP can be different mixes and/or masterings.

Without knowing for certain they’re not apples and oranges, it’s a pointless exercise...which is why I asked what the OP was trying to accomplish.

 

[quadsearcher]

Hope I'm not muddying things up here:
Of the streams on a DVD-A disc,
MLP is the highest resolution and with few exceptions is the preferred stream to rip and convert to FLAC.
DTS is lower resolution.
Dolby (AC3) is lowest.
With today's lower cost of storage media, I wouldn't even think about the lower res streams (except that one Lennon BD but that's not a DVDA so it is immaterial here).
MLP is the reason DVD-A exists, the other resolutions are for legacy DVD only players.

Once converted to FLAC, A DTS file is no longer DTS, it is FLAC, so the player would not indicate DTS, it is not DTS now.

A slight volume difference between optical or file playback should not be concerning. Say, between 9 o'clock on the volume knob to 9:30. If volume is set for a normal level on file playback, but a disc playback at the same level setting blows you out of your chair, then that is a concern.

Hope this helps.

 

[B&W Driver]

Hope I'm not muddying things up here:
Of the streams on a DVD-A disc,
MLP is the highest resolution and with few exceptions is the preferred stream to rip and convert to FLAC.
DTS is lower resolution.
Dolby (AC3) is lowest.
With today's lower cost of storage media, I wouldn't even think about the lower res streams (except that one Lennon BD but that's not a DVDA so it is immaterial here).
MLP is the reason DVD-A exists, the other resolutions are for legacy DVD only players.

Once converted to FLAC, A DTS file is no longer DTS, it is FLAC, so the player would not indicate DTS, it is not DTS now.

A slight volume difference between optical or file playback should not be concerning. Say, between 9 o'clock on the volume knob to 9:30. If volume is set for a normal level on file playback, but a disc playback at the same level setting blows you out of your chair, then that is a concern.

Hope this helps.

Thank you squared, Quadsearcher! This post is very helpful for a beginner. Now I finally understand what the disc should contain and what the various types of data on the DVD-A can do for you. Some of us only know the basics of the digital multichannel alphabet soup, and this is the primer I needed..did I say Thank you?

 

[quadsearcher]

Hey, no problem, really glad I could help a little. I'm still wondering why the Oppo had no choice for MLP playback (from the disc) in the setup. Two ripping program screenshots showed that MLP is present on the disc.
I have that disc somewhere but my Oppo is a 95, plus I've set it and forgot it as far as playback, it plays MLP if present, then chooses the next highest resolution if MLP not present.

Jim .... I'm pretty sure that you're onto something here, as well. This particular DVD-A -- Liittle Feat's Kickin' It At The Barn (2004) -- only has options for Dolby Surround or DTS Surround in the Audio Setup menu.

No again. It is a DVD-Audio. Here is the DVD-Audio layer you get when you open normally with DVD Audio Extractor.

Screen shot of Step 1 of 4 window...

View attachment 76966

I transferred the FLAC files rendered by DVDAE 8.1.0 to a USB thumb drive (TD), plugged the TD into the front panel of the Oppo 105D and used the Oppo interface to navigate to the folder containing the FLAC files...so I assume that the Oppo is decoding the data ripped from the original DVD-A.

We're relatively new to ripping any of our physical media, but this is the very first DVD-A that we've experimented with and, therefore, this is our first experience with DVDAE. I posted to this thread to get in touch with folks with DVDAE experience and, specifically, to check whether or not we're missing something within DVDAE. Thanks for weighing in on this.

 

[SeeMoreDigital]

Once converted to FLAC, A DTS file is no longer DTS, it is FLAC, so the player would not indicate DTS, it is not DTS now.

Indeed and agreed...

Personally I don't bother re-encoding dts audio streams (from dts-CD's or DVD's) to FLAC. Plus the FLAC files end up being bigger.

 

[jimfisheye]

One can test the theory that DVDAE is altering the music program. Grab the software, author your own disc, rip it and compare against the source files. They will either be perfect clone identical or not. Only perfect is acceptable here. A perfect null cannot be coincidence and is truly rock solid evidence of identical files. All the ones and zeros in the file are literally the same.

I've done this. So have many others. I'd say the claim that this app alters/corrupts the files requires evidence to back it up. ie. Post the before and after files after authoring and ripping your own disc.

This test puts you in control of all the variables outside the ripping app. To verify this the other way around using the stand alone disc player you'd have to set up verified signal paths and verify the dts encode/decode on the live stream and... It'd be a pretty epic PITA to set up! The point being that unless you did that, you have too many variables in play to say anything about the rip from DVDAE compared to it.

 

[marcb]

Thank you squared, Quadsearcher! This post is very helpful for a beginner. Now I finally understand what the disc should contain and what the various types of data on the DVD-A can do for you. Some of us only know the basics of the digital multichannel alphabet soup, and this is the primer I needed..did I say Thank you?

Note - if you advance to Blurays - they don’t have Audio and Video folders like DVDs or DVD-A’s.

They generally have some combo of one or more lossless PCM, DTS-HD MA or Dolby TrueHD programs (although there are some BDs with just lossy DTS and/or Dolby Digital). For the lossless DTS-HD MA and Dolby TrueHD, a lossy DTS or DD core is embedded within the respective lossless files.

You can rip any of the three lossless codecs - by definition, the data extracted should be exactly the same.

One issue within DVD-A is that DTS-HD MA is usually just listed as DTS. Which is fine - as long as you know it is DTS-HD MA and not just lossy DTS. Sometimes you need to do a little research to know exactly what you have with regard to DTS when you’re ripping a bluray.

 

[marcb]

One can test the theory that DVDAE is altering the music program. Grab the software, author your own disc, rip it and compare against the source files. They will either be perfect clone identical or not. Only perfect is acceptable here. A perfect null cannot be coincidence and is truly rock solid evidence of identical files. All the ones and zeros in the file are literally the same.

I've done this. So have many others. I'd say the claim that this app alters/corrupts the files requires evidence to back it up. ie. Post the before and after files after authoring and ripping your own disc.

This test puts you in control of all the variables outside the ripping app. To verify this the other way around using the stand alone disc player you'd have to set up verified signal paths and verify the dts encode/decode on the live stream and... It'd be a pretty epic PITA to set up! The point being that unless you did that, you have too many variables in play to say anything about the rip from DVDAE compared to it.

Couldn’t you also just rip the files from the different sources and do a null test?

 

[marcb]

Indeed and agreed...

Personally I don't bother re-encoding dts audio streams (from dts-CD's or DVD's) to FLAC. Plus the FLAC files end up being bigger.

I would do this if I could, but my eqpt doesn’t seem to recognize .dts files.

It can handle DTS CDs, but those are limited to 16/44. But most DTS programs on music DVDs is not 16/44.

 

[jimfisheye]

Couldn’t you also just rip the files from the different sources and do a null test?

Now you're comparing different sources while your ripping app is an unknown variable. (If we're entertaining the idea that DVDAE is corrupting files.)

Also there's the part where file corruption usually ends in dropouts. Not a volume attenuation that would have to be processed by specific digital audio handling code. That makes this kind of an extraordinary accusation. That's why it begs evidence.

 

[B&W Driver]

Note - if you advance to Blurays - they don’t have Audio and Video folders like DVDs or DVD-A’s.

They generally have some combo of one or more lossless PCM, DTS-HD MA or Dolby TrueHD programs (although there are some BDs with just lossy DTS and/or Dolby Digital). For the lossless DTS-HD MA and Dolby TrueHD, a lossy DTS or DD core is embedded within the respective lossless files.

You can rip any of the three lossless codecs - by definition, the data extracted should be exactly the same.

One issue within DVD-A is that DTS-HD MA is usually just listed as DTS. Which is fine - as long as you know it is DTS-HD MA and not just lossy DTS. Sometimes you need to do a little research to know exactly what you have with regard to DTS when you’re ripping a bluray.

We're trying to take this one step at a time. As I mentioned earlier, we've got a handle on ripping stereo CDs (Step 1), ripping a stereo SACD (Step 2), so we consider ripping a DVD-A to be Step 3.

This post is very perceptive [which is why I gave it a like] because Blu-ray audio will be Step 4...but I won't confuse things...I'm still trying to absorb the information about DVD ripping via DVDAE.

Couldn’t you also just rip the files from the different sources and do a null test?

I asked about this a couple of times in earlier posts...would you please explain what a "null test" is?

Thank you for your time,
B&W

 

[J. PUPSTER]

Definitely not true. I just ripped Tim Bowness & Giancarlo Era's Memories of Machines. By default all you see is the PCM 5.1. You have to open the VIDEO_TS folder in the manner that has been being discussed in order to see the 24/48 Stereo (and also the DTS/AC3 multichannel that is on the disc for compatibility with DVD-Video players). I've been using DVDAE for years and never seen it present AUDIO_TS and VIDEO_TS content simultaneously without the extra steps.

Are there any 24x96 DTS files on this one; I didn't see any?

 

[B&W Driver]

He wanted to extract the DTS portion of the disc but you can't do it with DVDAE it extracts the DVD-Audio (MLP) portion, which is better anyway. The output format can be selected from the next screen but it doesn't include a DTS option. You can save as a flac or wav etc.

So one conclusion that can be made, now that I understand what MLP is, is that DVDAE is defaulting to a "better" source, right?

You see, when the layman plays a DVD-A and sees that the only options are Dolby Surround or DTS Surround, it becomes a pretty simple choice based on what sounds better to the listener. How would a layman know that there's something buried in the "AUDIO_TS" directory that's called "MLP"?

Anyway, if DVDAE is defaulting to better audio information, we'll go with that.

 

[LuvMyQuad]

One issue within DVD-A is that DTS-HD MA is usually just listed as DTS. Which is fine - as long as you know it is DTS-HD MA and not just lossy DTS. Sometimes you need to do a little research to know exactly what you have with regard to DTS when you’re ripping a bluray.

I don't think I've ever encountered a DVD-Audio disc with both MLP and DTS-HD MA. The latter usually appears on Blu-rays and straight up DTS commonly shows up almost anywhere but mostly on DVD-Video disks, but is the lossy DTS version, not the MA variety.

 

[ssully]

Our long term goal in this regard is to rip all of our physical music media to FLAC.

As you saw, for DVD-Audio (DVDA) discs, DVDAE defaults to the lossless, aka the DVD-Audio layer, aka MLP layer, aka hi rez PCM layer of your DVDA disc.
You should just rip from that to FLAC, and you're done.
That is the highest quality version you can get from the disc. Forget the DTS or AC3 versions (those are found in the DVD layer).

Is your goal to rip all your DVDA surround mixes, stereo mixes, or both?

For surround, just rip the MLP. Done. If there's a stereo version offered in the MLP layer, rip that too. Done.

If no stereo version is offered in the MLP layer, it's unlikely to be in the DVD layer (aka DTS, AC3 layer) either, though you should check, using the DVD Source option described already. If there is really no stereo version, then you'll need to downmix the surround mix to stereo. DVDAE may be able to do that (I haven't ever bothered). OR: just buy the best CD mastering and rip that (or find a downloadable stereo version).

 

[B&W Driver]

As you saw, for DVD-Audio (DVDA) discs, DVDAE defaults to the lossless, aka the DVD-Audio layer, aka MLP layer, aka hi rez PCM layer of your DVDA disc.
You should just rip from that to FLAC, and you're done.
That is the highest quality version you can get from the disc. Forget the DTS or AC3 versions (those are found in the DVD layer).

Is your goal to rip all your DVDA surround mixes, stereo mixes, or both?

For surround, just rip the MLP. Done. If there's a stereo version offered in the MLP layer, rip that too. Done.

If no stereo version is offered in the MLP layer, it's unlikely to be in the DVD layer (aka DTS, AC3 layer) either, though you should check, using the DVD Source option described already. If there is really no stereo version, then you'll need to downmix the surround mix to stereo. DVDAE may be able to do that (I haven't ever bothered). OR: just buy the CD and rip that (or find a downloadable stereo version).

The question I've bolded (above) is a very good one. We come from a strictly stereo background, but that sort of got "interrupted" when, early last year, someone shared a sample of what he called "multichannel digital" with us...but I'm sure that "how the MC hook was set" is a common story, so I'll leave it at that ...but, needless to say, we love stereo, too, so your question really has me thinking...but the last time that we purchased a storage drive, the prices had increased quite a bit [like just about everything else these days], so perhaps we should err on the side of keeping keeping things as small as we can. In other words, we should probably keep our focus on the matter at hand: multichannel digital.

Thank you for the thought-provoking question...

 

[LuvMyQuad]

...but the last time that we purchased a storage drive, the prices had increased quite a bit [

https://www.bestbuy.com/site/wd-eas...able-hard-drive-black/6406512.p?skuId=6406512

That's a 5TB drive for a hair over $100. It will hold all the MCH files I have.