Quantcast

Early Tangerine Dream

Help Support QuadraphonicQuad:

Malcolm2010

Senior Member
Since 2002/2003
Joined
Dec 9, 2002
Messages
294
Location
Durham, England
Hi,
For all Tangerine Dream fans, I know the early albums Alpha Centauri and Atem were released in quad, but did the encoding make it to compact disk?. A colleague at work has an Alpha Centauri cd on the Relativity label from 1985 that I will be testing it on my Audionics Tate later in the week. Also were any other TD lp's encoded?, Phaedra for example. I have checked out the Quad discography, but only Alpha/Atem are listed... unless you now better !

Thanks

Malcolm
 

sspsandy

600 Club - QQ All-Star
Joined
Jul 9, 2003
Messages
663
Location
Piscataway, New Jersey
There is a German only SQ release of Zeit which I managed to pick up in flawless condition (it is excellent in quad BTW) that is super rare. It has a different label than the Ohr release, with the drawing of the wizard and stars and Kosmik Kouriers on top. As far as encoded CDs, since the quad mixes were all separate releases, and limited numbers, it is probable that the CDs are the stereo mixes. However, there is one double lp of Alpha Centauri/Atem that is the quad mix, it is only marked on the sleeve, not the discs, and it could have made it's way onto some CD release.
 

Cai Campbell

In Remembrance
Since 2002/2003
Joined
Mar 4, 2002
Messages
2,970
Location
Seattle, WA
I've wondered about this myself. I have Alpha Centauri and Atem on CD (the Castle issues) and have played them through my Tate SQ decoder. Alpha Centauri does not decode well at all. It is phasey, pumpy and generally annoying to listen to.

The fidelity of Atem is so bad as to render it nearly unlistenable. I have to wonder how many generations old the "master" tape was that they used. As for decoding, it sounds like it might be pretty good, but I still can't tell if it is "true" quad or not. The point is moot, though, since the sound quality is so bad to begin with.

There is a larger issue here that I've wondered about. Are the original "quad" issues of these LP's really quad at all, or did they just slap the old mono/stereo/quad moniker on the stereo albums and call it a day? Seriously, did they really take the time to go back and remix Alpha Centauri in quad for such a limited, Europe-only release? I am inclined to doubt that.

I haven't done any kind of comparision between the regular issue LP's and the "quad" releases. It would be interesting to hear the results from anyone who might perform such an experiment. Any takers?
 

Malcolm2010

Senior Member
Since 2002/2003
Joined
Dec 9, 2002
Messages
294
Location
Durham, England
Well tonight I got hold of the Alpha Centauri and Phaedra cd's. Alpha is the 1985 Relativity release, Phaedra is the re mastered 1995 Virgin release. I do not think this version of Alpha is quad, I played it through my Audionics and I agree with Cai, it does not decode well at all. Phaedra is a stereo cd, and it decodes as well as can be expected, but on both there seems to be a lack of out of phase information, as if it had been flattened out during the mastering process. I know someone else who has the Sanctuary release of Alpha on cd, I will try and get that to compare with the Relativity release and report back.

In a previous post, Sandy mentions he has Zeit in quad, and that decodes well, so maybe they did release limited quad mixes for local (European) consumption.

The search goes on....

Malcolm
 

sspsandy

600 Club - QQ All-Star
Joined
Jul 9, 2003
Messages
663
Location
Piscataway, New Jersey
I have been trying to get the SQ quad release of Alpha Centauri for a while now, it is hard to find. It was released with an alternate cover, which would lend credibility to the idea that it is a separate quad release. I do have Atem in SQ quad, and can say definately that it differs from the stereo lp mix, and decodes quite nicely through the Tate. It is not an aggressive 4 channel mix, but does have sounds that distinctly show up in the rear channels to puntuate the overall ambient surround effect. It also has great fidelity.
 

winopener

2K Club - QQ Super Nova
Since 2002/2003
Joined
Mar 2, 2002
Messages
3,761
sspsandy said:
I have been trying to get the SQ quad release of Alpha Centauri for a while now, it is hard to find. It was released with an alternate cover, which would lend credibility to the idea that it is a separate quad release. I do have Atem in SQ quad, and can say definately that it differs from the stereo lp mix, and decodes quite nicely through the Tate. It is not an aggressive 4 channel mix, but does have sounds that distinctly show up in the rear channels to puntuate the overall ambient surround effect. It also has great fidelity.
I have the AC+Atem double by Virgin on vinyl, it is supposed (almost on the cover) to be a quad mix, even if the labels don't say anything.
About the supposed euro-only quad, there are almost two different labels that released them in quad, Ohr in Germany and PDU in Italy.
 

sspsandy

600 Club - QQ All-Star
Joined
Jul 9, 2003
Messages
663
Location
Piscataway, New Jersey
I went back and listened to the Atem quad lp closely. First off, it only says quadraphonic on the cover, the labels on the record say stereo. But after giving it a close listen, I would suggest that it is in fact a quad record. The real test is the last cut on side 2, a bunch of percussion sounds and voices. On the quad lp, the sounds pan around distinctly through all 4 speakers, and it follows a pattern. Overall, this is a great quad mix, it really brings out a lot of subtle effects that are blended in on the stereo version, and this type of music really benefits from a quad treatment.
 

ssully

2K Club - QQ Super Nova
Since 2002/2003
Joined
Jul 2, 2003
Messages
2,761
Location
in your face
Hmm.. according to older threads on the Quad Forums,the Alpha and Zeit 'stereo' CDs decode nicely ...(do a site searchusing 'Tangerine' as a key), indicating that the 'quad' sources were used...

I don't have a quad setup but I do lots of listening with DPL II. The TD CDs of Alpha, Atem, and Zeit (Castle/Sanctuary remasters -- doesn't seem to matter which year the remaster was released, this company seems to keep rereleasing the exact same remasters with different packaging) behave rather strangely compared to other CDs -- e.g. Alpha sounds like front and rear soundstages are reversed from what they should be , when played with DPL II.

It also sounds to me like all of these CDs may have been sourced from LPs, rather than master tapes ...you can hear clicks and pops occasionally. I wrote to the official TD website about this once and got an ambiguous reply from Froese or whoever maintains the site...to the effect of 'what can you expect for such old albums?".
 

Malcolm2010

Senior Member
Since 2002/2003
Joined
Dec 9, 2002
Messages
294
Location
Durham, England
Hello again,
well some more news, I have spoken to a friend at work who has been helping in the search for these elusive cd's/lp's. He posted a question on a Tangerine dream user group, and this is what returned

Quote :-

"TDI themselves are telling me the CD's released by sanctuary/castle were done with the original quad masters."

Now then, this equates with some of us having good results with cd's and others not... the Relativity releases were not mentioned as being from the quad masters.

However Cai's sanctuary/castle releases did not decode well so I am still puzzled. I think I will wait and see if the lp's turn up, then try them through my Audionics.

Nothing is easy in this game !!

Malcolm
 

Cai Campbell

In Remembrance
Since 2002/2003
Joined
Mar 4, 2002
Messages
2,970
Location
Seattle, WA
I said that Atem sounds like it might decode well but the fidelity is so bad that I can't stand to listen to it (this is the Castle CD).

Alpha Centauri (Castle CD) does not decode well at all. This does not necessarily mean that it is not SQ encoded. There is a lot of SQ crud that does not decode well...

Also, don't discount the fact that what may sound great to one person, may not sound so great to another.
 

Malcolm2010

Senior Member
Since 2002/2003
Joined
Dec 9, 2002
Messages
294
Location
Durham, England
I agree, it depends on your expectations, and if you are a fan of the music. I only have heard Alpha Centauri on cd, not Atem, it was ok fidelity wise, but I have heard better from that era.
Soon I should have a transfer from the original SQ lp so that I can compare the cd version of Alpha with it. The cd (Sanctuary) version of Alpha did not decode well, the results were as stated earlier in this thread, but I also have a few SQ encoded recordings that make me wonder why they bothered in the first place ! :D
 

Scottmoose

500 Club - QQ All-Star
Joined
Aug 20, 2002
Messages
582
Location
Kingston-upon-Hull, Britain
ssully said:
Hmm.. according to older threads on the Quad Forums,the Alpha and Zeit 'stereo' CDs decode nicely ...(do a site searchusing 'Tangerine' as a key), indicating that the 'quad' sources were used...
They do. Or I think so. It's a bit subjective this sort of thing, so you really need to try it out and see what you think. Quad sources? Not sure. Possible though -there's certainly quite a bit in the rear channels.
 

DuncanS

2K Club - QQ Super Nova
QQ Supporter
Joined
Aug 30, 2012
Messages
5,173
Location
UK
I have listened to all the CDs in Tangerine Dream "The Pink Years Albums 1970-1973" via DD PLII Music, I maybe fooling myself but Alpha Centauri, Zeit & Atem have an awful lot going on in the rear channels so could be from the SQ masters. I have never heard the Quad versions of them, so I can't compare, nor do I have an SQ decoder so use DD PLII Music for SQ, and comparing to a known SQ they do sound surround like.
 

fizzywiggs41

2K Club - QQ Super Nova
Joined
Feb 15, 2015
Messages
4,098
Location
wpg, mb
I've had a few versions of these 3 albums and tapes over the years .

I think both Alpha Centauri and Zeit are the weaker encoded , and Atem somewhat better.

Going by dates I'm guessing Zeit and Alpha may be stereo that were enhanced via an SQ encoder , but I'm guessing.


Have the German pressing on OHR of Atem , sounds good to me.
It was also available as a twofer on Virgin with Alpha and I think it said quadraphonishe on the inside cover.
 

fizzywiggs41

2K Club - QQ Super Nova
Joined
Feb 15, 2015
Messages
4,098
Location
wpg, mb
Sorry my device was timing out.


Or the cover said quadrophnie , on the Virgin Album.
Zeit I had a cassette copy made and sent to me fr a friend which came from the Italian PDU/EMI label and it didn't sound too bad actually.
(Always wanted it on lp , btw.)

Now I also had that Virgin twofer of Alpha and Atem (wish I'd kept it , now)


Well so in conclusion, Duncan.

I think they're all SQ encoded , those 3 , but there is a bit of loss in generation of releases . This goes for the cd's as well.

Not sure if the very first , german edition of Zeit and Alpha were quad but later editions (73?) seem to be.

Deiter Deirks had two SQ encoding facilities in Germany from what I can gather Stommhelm and Munich and was actively recording and encoding lots in quad (again starting in 73?).
 

DuncanS

2K Club - QQ Super Nova
QQ Supporter
Joined
Aug 30, 2012
Messages
5,173
Location
UK
I read somewhere that the albums were remixed in to Quad for the later 70s re-releases. The sound quality is good, especially the clarity of the drums (so they have come from 'good' master tapes), the reproduction 'gatefold' CD covers make no mention of Quadraphonic. My gut feeling these are from the right period for them to be the Quads. Maybe I should email Esoteric/Cherry Red to ask if they know.
 

fizzywiggs41

2K Club - QQ Super Nova
Joined
Feb 15, 2015
Messages
4,098
Location
wpg, mb
Sorry my device was timing out.


Or the cover said quadrophnie , on the Virgin Album.
Zeit I had a cassette copy made and sent to me fr a friend which came from the Italian PDU/EMI label and it didn't sound too bad actually.
(Always wanted it on lp , btw.)

Now I also had that Virgin twofer of Alpha and Atem (wish I'd kept it , now)


Well so in conclusion, Duncan.

I think they're all SQ encoded , those 3 , but there is a bit of loss in generation of releases . This goes for the cd's as well.

Not sure if the very first , german edition of Zeit and Alpha were quad but later editions (73?) seem to be.

Deiter Deirks had two SQ encoding facilities in Germany from what I can gather Stommhelm and Munich and was actively recording and encoding lots in quad (again starting in 73?).

Correction,

Stommhelm and Cologne were Deirks Quadro studios.
 
Top