Elilot Scheiner interview from Feb. 2022
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i take the point he's pissed off about Dolby's edicts and attitude and interference, etc but i abhor closed-mindedness in a person, especially when its quite apparent that person has no idea what they are talking about!
also, it seems unfair to criticize young and up and coming engineers, even the Elliot Scheiner's and Al Schmitt's (i presume that's the Al he is referring to?) of this world had to start somewhere...
Steven Wilson had Elliot Scheiner as a kind of teacher for 5.1 mix for 2002 Porcupine Tree "In Absentia".
Steven did want to learn mixing surround, because he wanted to do it himself only. Two Porcupine Tree albums later 2007 "Fear of a Blank Planet", Steven did the surround mix already by himself alone.
Not many years ago, Steven Wilson was asked in an interview about Dolby Atmos Music and he seemed unaware of it, and he was thinking that there were no market or no interest or no need to mix music in Dolby Atmos.
But then Steven changed his mind. He has yet the potential to do newer things.
I look like Elliot Scheiner is too old to face changes in his life, and trying to avoid that, he is looking for excuses.
Steven did want to learn mixing surround, because he wanted to do it himself only. Two Porcupine Tree albums later 2007 "Fear of a Blank Planet", Steven did the surround mix already by himself alone.
Not many years ago, Steven Wilson was asked in an interview about Dolby Atmos Music and he seemed unaware of it, and he was thinking that there were no market or no interest or no need to mix music in Dolby Atmos.
But then Steven changed his mind. He has yet the potential to do newer things.
I look like Elliot Scheiner is too old to face changes in his life, and trying to avoid that, he is looking for excuses.
Agreed. But its a pretty low bar. The original 5.1 is pretty lackluster to begin with. If it could have been remixed as 5.1 and improved on without resorting to Atmos, then who knows?
If I remember well, just at the beginning of the first track, the drums are clearly circling around the room like a clock hand. I would call that "circular panning".
I would have to re-listen Yoshimi to confirm more pannings.
It looks that Elliot Scheiner was 'too young' when he mixed Yoshimi.
He doesn't understand how Apple's system works (how could he, it is incredibly confusing).
If you tell it not to download Atmos, you will get the real stereo mix.
You would kind of have to jump through hoops to get it to render the Atmos mix as stereo which he seems to think is the norm (download for offline playback, be off the internet, choose speakers that don't support Atmos).
If you tell it not to download Atmos, you will get the real stereo mix.
You would kind of have to jump through hoops to get it to render the Atmos mix as stereo which he seems to think is the norm (download for offline playback, be off the internet, choose speakers that don't support Atmos).
Scheiner gets the mix credit on Yoshimi, but I think his actual role on that project was more of a supervisor to Dave Fridmann and Wayne Coyne.
I thought something was up about that after his comments, now it makes sense.
So, his role was to 'approve' the mix? Or 'certificate' the mix?
This reminds me when the first credit in a technical paper goes to a renowned investigator, but the people that really did the investigation job and get results appears at the end.
Agreed. The 5.1 mix by Giles Martin (one of his first without his dad) is so squawky in the mid-range I find it unlistenable.
Thread Drift Alert…I’m listening to Pepper right now. 5.1 (With A Little Bit Of Help From Auro 3D). There’s been a lot of vitriol spewed at this production. I’ve got the fronts and center reduced 3 dB. And upmixing with Auro 3D to 5.1.5 makes ALL the difference in the world. The transformation is quite remarkable.
I‘ve never had the pleasure of hearing the Atmos version.
Gil, I also need to mention that Auro 3D changes the frequency spectrum a bit, and in this case it’s for the better. When I turn Auromatic off, the presentation does indeed drift towards midranginess.
That's the way I understood it as well.
Did you guys listen to him correctly as I did not find his information as a rant at all.
Remember he has even setup Acura vehicles with 16 or whatever it is speakers so he has nothing against the spreading around of music to multiple speakers and speaker's overhead.
What I got out of it is he is totally correct as same thing happened to me in my work life.
I learned things from the ground up and then all of a sudden a higher up at work said doesn't matter what people's abilities are at work we had to all go back to school and get all kinds of certifications for things I had been doing for years.
Elliot Scheiner is an amazing engineer and Elliot would have to graduate from Atmos Mixing School or whatever you want to call it inorder to do an Atmos mix himself. THIS IS ABSOLUTELY INSANE.
Elliot could teach a course I am pretty sure on Atmos as he totally understand's music as he has lived and breathed music.
He then secondly does explain that they are trying to get mix's done on the cheap and I don't doubt he is correct in this. It's not all mix's but from reading what people who have Atmos I am reading that you guys are saying some mix's are totally under whelming, makes me think of the Silverline approach to 5.1 mix's as they did have some good ones but then they had many that were just pumped out upmix's. Are they possibly doing something like that with Atmos as well?
Remember he has even setup Acura vehicles with 16 or whatever it is speakers so he has nothing against the spreading around of music to multiple speakers and speaker's overhead.
What I got out of it is he is totally correct as same thing happened to me in my work life.
I learned things from the ground up and then all of a sudden a higher up at work said doesn't matter what people's abilities are at work we had to all go back to school and get all kinds of certifications for things I had been doing for years.
Elliot Scheiner is an amazing engineer and Elliot would have to graduate from Atmos Mixing School or whatever you want to call it inorder to do an Atmos mix himself. THIS IS ABSOLUTELY INSANE.
Elliot could teach a course I am pretty sure on Atmos as he totally understand's music as he has lived and breathed music.
He then secondly does explain that they are trying to get mix's done on the cheap and I don't doubt he is correct in this. It's not all mix's but from reading what people who have Atmos I am reading that you guys are saying some mix's are totally under whelming, makes me think of the Silverline approach to 5.1 mix's as they did have some good ones but then they had many that were just pumped out upmix's. Are they possibly doing something like that with Atmos as well?
Why would he have to do that? As I understand it, the certification process involves a Dolby team coming down to ensure one's studio is in-spec and properly calibrated - there's no "mixing school" where older engineers have to prove their skill by taking tests. Besides, the mixing software is really not hard to use at all. If I was able to figure it out, I'm sure he could too. We all know Elliot's a creative guy unafraid to really spread things out in surround, and Atmos offers an even bigger palette to practice his magic. It's such a shame that we'll never get to see how he'd approach it.
Yep. He's got some legitimate gripes, for sure, but as @fredblue pointed out, those gripes are all mixed up with prejudices and things (like what it means to get "certified" by Dolby) that he's misconstrued or only half understands.
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When UMG announced they were readying 1K Dolby Atmos remixes for streaming everyone became uber excited at the prospect!
But much like their 'aborted' BD~A Audio launch of the mid 00's, how many are really worthy of your consideration?
Scheiner just seemed to hit the nail on the head. In order to do a proper remix, especially in ATMOS, a remix engineer not only has to have full access to the multitracks but should also have an 'intimate connection' to the music , whether classic rock/pop or for current artists.
I am NOT ATMOS equipped but have been reading most of the QQ ATMOS posts and as peterzach alludes to .... some of them are 'botched' Silverline~like remixes, haphazardly remixed with zero connection to the originl source. Add to that LOSSY codecs and a 'rental' mentality and you have all the ingredients for sub par results.
KUDOS to the very few remix engineers who truly 'get' ATMOS because it's not just a case of adding more speakers .... but integrating them all into a cohesive blend while at the same time staying true to the source material.
So instead of dismissing Scheiner as an old geezer who's woefully out of touch with current technology, the man has a valid point.
And IMO, the best way to showcase stellar ATMOS remixes is via LOSSLESS Physical Pure Audio BD~A ... much like Paul Sinclair and SDE are accomplishing at this very moment. And still offering a LOSSLESS 5.1 option for those who haven't yet made the ATMOS plunge!
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Must all threads devolve into lossy vs. lossless?
I just relistened again,listen to what he says from 1:20-1:40, I think he is meaning 2 things about Atmos certification not just hardware:
"You as an engineer need's to do this to be approved and the room you do it in needs to be approved".
I think he is taking offence that they have the gall to say people who have been in the music industry for 50 plus years would know how to do this just as good or better than the Atmos group does.
I think Elliot knows a thing or 2 about setting up surround hardware as I have been blessed to be driving a vehicle with his surround hardware setup.
"You as an engineer need's to do this to be approved and the room you do it in needs to be approved".
I think he is taking offence that they have the gall to say people who have been in the music industry for 50 plus years would know how to do this just as good or better than the Atmos group does.
I think Elliot knows a thing or 2 about setting up surround hardware as I have been blessed to be driving a vehicle with his surround hardware setup.
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