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ELP Welcolme Back My Friends To The Show That Never Ends, Quad.

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fluid

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I've been I huge fan of ELP. with the 70 to 74 incarnation by far the band at their best, I like many more have been be frustrated by the lack of live recordings from that era, WBMFTTSTNE is a good representation of what must have been a amazing show with the use of a quad up up, but the Vinyl and CD versions really never gave it justice.
A good friend of mine who knew I was a big ELP fan was trawling a torrent site when he came across a eight track quad version of Welcolm Back, but with the third disk missing , not sure if he meant the third 8 track.
My friend (ahem) downloaded it for me, made me a Iso dvd and gave it to me to play.

I put it on my universal player with 5.1 set up, I was shocked at how much better the quailty was best of all some of the keyboard parts blasting out the rear speakers, It was suberp, now why the hell hasn't this been realesed in all its glory it just blows everthing else away but its missing Karn Evil, I have some questions does anybodyhere own this 8 track quad or is there anyway of getting the full version so my friend can pass it on.
 

fredblue

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I've been I huge fan of ELP. with the 70 to 74 incarnation by far the band at their best, I like many more have been be frustrated by the lack of live recordings from that era, WBMFTTSTNE is a good representation of what must have been a amazing show with the use of a quad up up, but the Vinyl and CD versions really never gave it justice.
A good friend of mine who knew I was a big ELP fan was trawling a torrent site when he came across a eight track quad version of Welcolm Back, but with the third disk missing , not sure if he meant the third 8 track.
My friend (ahem) downloaded it for me, made me a Iso dvd and gave it to me to play.

I put it on my universal player with 5.1 set up, I was shocked at how much better the quailty was best of all some of the keyboard parts blasting out the rear speakers, It was suberp, now why the hell hasn't this been realesed in all its glory it just blows everthing else away but its missing Karn Evil, I have some questions does anybodyhere own this 8 track quad or is there anyway of getting the full version so my friend can pass it on.
Hmm.. pretty sure Jakko Jakszyk found the Quad master tapes for this one when he was remixing Brain Salad Surgery for the box set a couple of years ago (one of the big ELP fans here will confirm or clarify, I'm sure) and I think it was being considered for inclusion at least in some future reissue possibly.. but now who knows what the situation is with the new label arrangements etc.?

Ps. You mention the keyboard parts being brought up in the mix, wouldn't it be fitting to see the old Quad being reissued as part of some special release or box set or something in tribute to and showcasing the talents of the late great Mr. Emerson?
 

rtbluray

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Here's a direct quote about all of this from the "Brain Salad Surgery" Super Deluxe Edition booklet:
Jakko then realized he was missing a track. It was "Karn Evil 9: 1st Impression Part 1 & 2" which contains 'Welcome Back My Friends' the most famous tune on the whole album. He checked to see if it might be held in the Atlantic Records archive in Burbank, California.

"Then I realized that although the majority of the album was recorded at Advision in London, it seems as though they had started out at Olympic Studios in barnes. I got in touch with the guy in charge of their archive and he sent me a spread sheet that revealed there were three of four multi-track reels with an Olympic stiver on them. They also found some one inch tapes of Quad mixes I thought I could utilize for the 5.1 mix if we had lost the missing track."

Jakko was sent a hard drive of this new material. He played the Quad mixes first and found they were 'live' versions of "Karn Evil 9".

"Then I went through the stuff recorded at Olympic and it seemed to be studio version of "Karn Evil 9". The last reel I opened in digital format was indeed the mater of the missing track."
 

fredblue

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Here's a direct quote about all of this from the "Brain Salad Surgery" Super Deluxe Edition booklet:
Great sleuthing Sherlock Ryan! :upthumb
While he doesn't specifically say the WBMFTTSTNE Quads.. "what else could it be?" thought little old me.. :eek:
 

kap'n krunch

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oh, don't worry lads, ...this has also been discussed almost endlessly in the forum...
Bottom line is that the tapes are not the best quality and that , when it came down to do a CD-4 version of the album (which was part of the plan), the engineer stated something like "I can't do anything with this, it's not up to par (unstable imaging, etc).
That is why it has never been released officially.

Now, if they find a BETTER sounding version and with a more "stable" quad imaging, THAT would be anther story...but I'm not holding my breath!
(sorry for the not so good news!)
 
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fredblue

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oh, don't worry lads, ...this has also been discussed almost endlessly in the forum...
Bottom line is that the pates are not the best quality and that , when it came down to do a CD-4 version of the albun (which was part of the plan), the engineer stated something like "I can't do anything with this, it's not up to par (unstable imaging, etc).
That is why it has never been released officially.

Now, if they find a BETTER sounding version and with a more "stable" quad imaging, THAT would be anther story...but I'm not holding my breath!
(sorry for the not so good news!)
ah that's a real shame :( thanks for the info though, Kap) .. still there's 100's of other Quads by other artists that I'm sure don't have those issues, just sitting there waiting to be reissued.. :eek:
 

fluid

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Hmm.. pretty sure Jakko Jakszyk found the Quad master tapes for this one when he was remixing Brain Salad Surgery for the box set a couple of years ago (one of the big ELP fans here will confirm or clarify, I'm sure) and I think it was being considered for inclusion at least in some future reissue possibly.. but now who knows what the situation is with the new label arrangements etc.?

Ps. You mention the keyboard parts being brought up in the mix, wouldn't it be fitting to see the old Quad being reissued as part of some special release or box set or something in tribute to and showcasing the talents of the late great Mr. Emerson?
This unofficial release I got hold of is by far a fast improvment on anything else gone before, and yes to hear Mr Emerson full flow is brilliant, Hoedown the middle section where he's goes into a little improf, the synth goes back and forth rear speakers and thats just one track, why can't they track down a compleat 8 track quad and do something with it.

On a final note out of all the great muzos to leave us it was so sad that keith died in that manner, due to critisim its hearbreaking, I know thousands of fans will be well aware Keith Emerson was one of the best a and in my book better than them all, so somebody anybody get your act together and lets get once and for all a fiiting tribute to the man, you want to hear dynamic exciting playing lets get WBMFTTSTNE, Keith derserves at least that.
 

himey

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I've been I huge fan of ELP. with the 70 to 74 incarnation by far the band at their best, I like many more have been be frustrated by the lack of live recordings from that era, WBMFTTSTNE is a good representation of what must have been a amazing show with the use of a quad up up, but the Vinyl and CD versions really never gave it justice.
A good friend of mine who knew I was a big ELP fan was trawling a torrent site when he came across a eight track quad version of Welcolm Back, but with the third disk missing , not sure if he meant the third 8 track.
My friend (ahem) downloaded it for me, made me a Iso dvd and gave it to me to play.

I put it on my universal player with 5.1 set up, I was shocked at how much better the quailty was best of all some of the keyboard parts blasting out the rear speakers, It was suberp, now why the hell hasn't this been realesed in all its glory it just blows everthing else away but its missing Karn Evil, I have some questions does anybodyhere own this 8 track quad or is there anyway of getting the full version so my friend can pass it on.
Have your friend find you the ELP - King Biscuit Flower Hour quad, if I remember corectly, the mix is much better. I will give it a listen later and if I am mistaken, post back...
 

fredblue

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This unofficial release I got hold of is by far a fast improvment on anything else gone before, and yes to hear Mr Emerson full flow is brilliant, Hoedown the middle section where he's goes into a little improf, the synth goes back and forth rear speakers and thats just one track, why can't they track down a compleat 8 track quad and do something with it.

On a final note out of all the great muzos to leave us it was so sad that keith died in that manner, due to critisim its hearbreaking, I know thousands of fans will be well aware Keith Emerson was one of the best a and in my book better than them all, so somebody anybody get your act together and lets get once and for all a fiiting tribute to the man, you want to hear dynamic exciting playing lets get WBMFTTSTNE, Keith derserves at least that.
iirc there was a problem with the Q8s, one of the tapes had some problems inherent in the replication or something? maybe that's why its missing from your Vn.?

One of the Quad 8-track aficionados here will be able to confirm.
 

kap'n krunch

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iirc there was a problem with the Q8s, one of the tapes had some problems inherent in the replication or something? maybe that's why its missing from your Vn.?

One of the Quad 8-track aficionados here will be able to confirm.
Oh , heck , yeah! Don't remember which one it was but one of the carts had a HORRIBLE FLUTTER almost throughout the tape.!
 

quadtrade

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And it was a terrible mix, almost unlistenable at times. The only thing good was being able to find parts one could not hear in other mixes as this was so discrete. And yep as i remember, i had 3 different copies and all had manufacturing issues. Masters have to sound better, but it does not solve the weird mix. It would be something only serious fans would purchase. Not sure if BR has done a conversion.
 

fluid

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Have your friend find you the ELP - King Biscuit Flower Hour quad, if I remember corectly, the mix is much better. I will give it a listen later and if I am mistaken, post back...
I've heared the King version(stereo) and its not apatch on the Quad I heared.
I still have some thoughts about the whole thing.
As I understand it the Quad version 8 track is quite rare and with three tapes but there must be one compleat good copy out there, I know there is a 4 channel version you can get hold of.
There must be a way to cobble together a quad of WBMFTTSTNE, with poor master tapes isn't there a method by using baking ovens to unglue the reels and the other thing they must have recorded more than one show in 73 wher's all that stuff gone.
If Yes can release 7 shows from 72 it says to me with some EFFORT meteriel can be found repaired and put out to the starving hoards, I think thats were the problem lies Lake and palmer and ELP management seem to lack the desire to do this.
 

himey

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I've heared the King version(stereo) and its not apatch on the Quad I heared.
I still have some thoughts about the whole thing.
As I understand it the Quad version 8 track is quite rare and with three tapes but there must be one compleat good copy out there, I know there is a 4 channel version you can get hold of.
There must be a way to cobble together a quad of WBMFTTSTNE, with poor master tapes isn't there a method by using baking ovens to unglue the reels and the other thing they must have recorded more than one show in 73 wher's all that stuff gone.
If Yes can release 7 shows from 72 it says to me with some EFFORT meteriel can be found repaired and put out to the starving hoards, I think thats were the problem lies Lake and palmer and ELP management seem to lack the desire to do this.
Apatch?

I gave another listen to the King Biscuit and it was as great as I remember. Excellent sound, excellent mix. I would buy an AF release of that in a heartbeat. Not many songs but most are extended versions. Not sure who did the conversion but it is a dvd audio disc with 24 bit 44.1 quality. I love the 70s style massive amount of bass. Wish the WBMFTTSTNE was as good because it has more material...
 

ssully

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I've heared the King version(stereo) and its not apatch on the Quad I heared.
So, what is the version you heard?

There are a handful -- the Q8, the King Biscuit CD (which was heavily 'remastered' from the original braodcast), the original King Biscuit broadcast (which is available for streaming on Wolfgang's Vault), at least two 'fan' attempts at correction of the Q8, and the Silverline 'surround' DVD-A 'From the Front Row-Live'.
 

fluid

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Apatch?

I gave another listen to the King Biscuit and it was as great as I remember. Excellent sound, excellent mix. I would buy an AF release of that in a heartbeat. Not many songs but most are extended versions. Not sure who did the conversion but it is a dvd audio disc with 24 bit 44.1 quality. I love the 70s style massive amount of bass. Wish the WBMFTTSTNE was as good because it has more material...
Sorry not a patch on the quad, it means not as good, mayby I need to get hold of the version you heared, thanks for the info.
Agree with the 70 's bass, concerts back then were louder with huge PA stacks as I well remember.
 

fluid

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I have the DVD A From the Front row, could be the version Himey heared, just like to say the quad 8 track is the best I've listened to.
 

himey

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I have the DVD A From the Front row, could be the version Himey heared, just like to say the quad 8 track is the best I've listened to.
The one I have is a conversion. It is quad and very discreet. I wouldn't bother to mention it, but the mix and sound is so good, especially compared to the Welcome Back... conversion I have, I felt I had to:) It may be from a reel, but I can't remember for sure. It's seven tracks with many of them very extended.
 

ssully

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Yes I should have added to my list, at least two 'fan' decodes of the KBFH SQ quad broadcast exist too.

King Biscuit quad broadcast was of songs recorded at the Anaheim 2/2/74 show. These same performances, with a different mix, appeared on the Welcome Back My Friends album/Q8 (mixed in with other songs that were not on the broadcast). But they aren't 'extended' on the KBFH, they're the same....or shorter, in the case of Piano Improvisations -- which is ~3-4 min shorter on the KBFH, compared to the LP/Q8. It's notable that on every version of the Q8 that I've heard, there are terrible pitch instability -- wow/flutter -- issues during this track, which may be why KBFH only broadcast an 'excerpt'. (For whatever reason, the issues are not apparent on the stereo version). Karn Evil 9 2nd Impression is also truncated on the original KBFH SQ broadcast (though not on the Wolfgang's Vault version of the same track!)
 

fluid

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Yes I should have added to my list, at least two 'fan' decodes of the KBFH SQ quad broadcast exist too.

King Biscuit quad broadcast was of songs recorded at the Anaheim 2/2/74 show. These same performances, with a different mix, appeared on the Welcome Back My Friends album/Q8 (mixed in with other songs that were not on the broadcast). But they aren't 'extended' on the KBFH, they're the same....or shorter, in the case of Piano Improvisations -- which is ~3-4 min shorter on the KBFH, compared to the LP/Q8. It's notable that on every version of the Q8 that I've heard, there are terrible pitch instability -- wow/flutter -- issues during this track, which may be why KBFH only broadcast an 'excerpt'. (For whatever reason, the issues are not apparent on the stereo version). Karn Evil 9 2nd Impression is also truncated on the original KBFH SQ broadcast (though not on the Wolfgang's Vault version of the same track!)
Could we then put them in order of quality
Q8
Q4
Album Original
Album reissue
CD
CD Remaster
Wolfgang stream
Fan remaster
Anything else
 

ssully

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Could we then put them in order of quality
Q8
Q4
Album Original
Album reissue
CD
CD Remaster
Wolfgang stream
Fan remaster
Anything else

What is 'Q4'? There was never a quad LP or reel-to-reel release of this, AFAIK.

Also quality is subjective, and some of these are stereo mixes, some are surround mixes.

( I have been told that there were probably two quad mixes done originally soon after the Anaheim gig, one for KBFH (their quad master was encoded to SQ, send to stations, then broadcast), and another for quad LP album. As we know the quad LP was never released though, and the mix only appeared as a Q8, i.e., 8-track cassette. I have also been told that the WBMF LP stereo mix [and therefore any CD of it] is actually a fold-down of the intended album quad mix. I have also been told the the stereo mixes available from KBFH Wolfgang's were made separately, starting from multitracks -- and that they may be two separate mixes , i.e., one made long ago for KBFH, and another made more recently by engineers for streaming on Wolfgang's.

As you can see, the story appears to be complicated. However, if it's true, that means the multitrack recording masters still exist somwhere, perhaps in the hands of Wolfgang's Vault. A set of quad master tapes may exist too.)
 
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