ELVIS Aloha from Hawaii - (used) RCA Quadradisc

[kfbkfb]

Bought my 1st used CD-4 disc today at Vinyl Renaissance (they don't have a special Quad section anymore).

It seems to be an early mastering since the disc labels say STEREO.

One interesting thing is that the inner groove extends closer to the label than most of my other CD-4 discs (just checked the Arista - Funny Lady CD-4 - AFAIK, the record holder at 27 minutes on one side - that side doesn't extend quite as close to the label as this Elvis Quadradisc does).

Any reported CD-4 playback problems with this Elvis Quadradisc (it was mastered with the JVC Mark 1 ~1/3 speed system)?

https://www.discogs.com/master/108030-Elvis-Aloha-From-Hawaii-Via-SatelliteFor some reason, RCA didn't do single inventory Quadradiscs worldwide, seems like it would have been easier to just release the CD-4 disc version worldwide, maybe with a special sticker that said it was stereo and mono compatible.

My demod isn't currently connected, I'll bring my other turntable to my basement system and try out the CD-4 decoding.

edit: connected my SH-400, cleaned the stylus on my Shure V15 3, carrier light goes on, but it's clear that the Elvis disc needs to be cleaned (tried my Arista Godspell CD-4 - plays OK, so the demod system is working)


Kirk Bayne

 

[Doug G.]

Does your V15 have the VN35MR stylus?

I have no problem playing either of my copies of the Elvis record with any of my CD-4 cartridges.

Doug

 

[kfbkfb]

Yes, but the V15 3 has poor (CD-4) frequency response and channel separation (it's still somewhat puzzling that Julian Hirsch/Stereo Review heard no difference between a CD-4 cartridge and the Shure V15 2 Improved [elliptical] using a JVC 4DD-5 or Panasonic SE-405 demod).

(one problem I've had with used LPs is skipping, 2 [including 1 LP in this Elvis LP set] of my 4 total used LPs skip)


Kirk Bayne

 

[Doug G.]

Yes, although the stylus is important, it's not everything. The electricals have to be correct, too. I have tried some of my regular two channel cartridges with CD-4, including my V15 Type III, and they are close but no cigar. The carrier level is not being maintained.

The Julian Hirsch thing is a bit puzzling. Do you know what issue of SR it was in? It's hard to believe I don't remember it.

Do your skippers have visible scratches in them?

Doug

 

[kfbkfb]

https://worldradiohistory.com/Archi...eo/70s/HiFi-Stereo-Review-1972-12.pdf#page=31(pdf page 50)

That JH/SR comment prompted me to ask if I could get a stereo cartridge that was OK for CD-4 when I was buying my amp/speakers/cartridge in 1972-12 (the salesman said all of the top of the line carts worked for CD-4, but I ended up with a Shure M91ED, I still have the cart body, but no stylus, it'd be interesting to try it w/SH-400)

I don't know if the Shure MicroRidge stylus contacts enough of (or even any) of the upper 1/2 of the (CD-4) groove, which is undamaged even with 100s of plays w/~5g tracking force.

I threw away one of the used LPs that skipped when I got the CD version, the Elvis LP side that skips shows no damage that I can see.


Kirk Bayne

 

[Doug G.]

Thanks for the link, Kirk. You know how when you're reading something and certain phrases in an article stick out and make you realize you have read it before? Even though I said I didn't remember this article, those phrases made me know I read it back then.

Even though I don't have any of the three cartridges he mentioned as working for CD-4 on a par with the specifically designed CD-4 cartridges of the day, I have 2 of what would be considered their superiors (Empire 2000Z, Shure V15 Type III) and so now, of course, I will have to try them again to see if I can get them to perform as well as they did.

I know I have tried these before (hence, my "close but no cigar" comment) but my curiosity will make me do it again!

I notice, later on in the article, he does kind of qualify his findings a bit by not really endorsing the use of these cartridges for CD-4, along with stating none of the cartridge or demodulator manufacturers did either.

I have an SE-405 that works perfectly and an SH-400 which generally works fine except it needs to have the board connectors between the main board and the vertical board cleaned.

BTW, I noticed the ad for headphones from my old company, Telex, although this was 6 years prior to my employment there.

 

[kfbkfb]

https://www.quadraphonicquad.com/fo...4-demodulator-archive.9035/page-22#post-78463^^^
As far as the Stereo Review article, their subjective tests, although quite encouraging did not agree with our lab tests in which the order of performance was: EPC451C, EPC450C, Empire 1000E/X, ADC XLM, Shure V15 Type II


Looks like my used Elvis album is made w/conventional vinyl (a few posts before the linked one) so it almost certainly needs cleaning for suitable CD-4 playback.


Kirk Bayne

 

[MidiMagic]

Some information:

1. Other cartridges might work on the outer grooves of a CD-4 record, but the inner grooves would be a lot more difficult with elliptical styli.

2. "Aloha via Satellite" is the only CD-4 record I have (other than the calibration disc) and I got it at a used record store. It never played correctly in CD-4. And I got it before RCA announced the more durable record material. It was one of their first CD-4 releases.

3. Often I can clear a record skip or a locked groove by putting the turntable in neutral, doubling the tracking force, and playing the groove turn with the damage backwards.

 

[edisonbaggins]

Saw one of these today at my local 1/2 Price Books for around $10. Thought of y'all, but checked discogs and you can get them cheaper there, in like the VG+ range.
1/2 Price Books tends to buy only scratchless records, so, somebody lmk if you want me to pick it up. I'm always down for a CD-4 / SQ/QS type of trade.

 

[kfbkfb]

IMHO, RCA had the right idea ~50 years ago - single inventory quadraphonic LPs at the same price as stereo LPs (stereo tapes of the album were the quad to stereo downmix, no separate stereo mix was made).

RCA did this from 1972-05 to 4Q1973 and then switched to dual inventory stereo and $1 more quad LPs (I don't know if they continued to use the quad downmix as the stereo mix).


In my case, it looks like my used CD-4 disc would really benefit from ultrasonic cleaning, and I need to find a CD-4 cartridge that has a true Shibata stylus to take advantage of the "bridging the groove damage" effect, any suggestions?


Kirk Bayne

 

[Doug G.]

To start, I tried (again) the two cartridges I mentioned and the results were the same as they have always been and agree with Midimagic. They are fine in the outer grooves, particularly the Empire 2000Z, which sounds marvelous, but in the last 1/4 of the record, the spitting starts.

The V15 Type III didn't even fare as well as the Empire but, to be fair, its stylus is very old and, even though it still sounds fine with two channel records, it is obviously too worn for CD-4 use.

Hirsch and company had brand new records and styli to test and I'm sure, given the more stringent requirements for CD-4, it probably made a difference.

As to recommendations for a CD-4 cartridge, I have several and they all work fine - Pickering XUV -4500Q, Empire 4000 D/I, Empire 440D, Audio Technica AT912Sa, Panasonic EPC 450C II, Panasonic EPC 451C, and a couple others.

The modern Audio Technica AT440MLa (which I also have) and AT440MLb have been used and even though they work fine, generally, they still fall short where genuine CD-4 cartridges shine in complex, high frequency, highly modulated passages.

It's all a matter of the carriers being maintained at a level high enough for the demodulators to use. Even though the stylus is a major factor, the electrical parameters of a given cartridge are also important and I feel are often overlooked when setting up a CD-4 system. People believe the words of salespeople and perhaps, those who are not as knowledgeable as they claim, instead of the science.

Doug

 

[kfbkfb]

https://worldradiohistory.com/Archi...eo/70s/HiFi-Stereo-Review-1974-02.pdf#page=34
The only CD-4 cartridge I bought (still packed away) was a Grado FTR+1 (my turntable didn't have low capacitance tonearm wiring), it has a conical stylus, I never got to try it w/CD-4 demod (didn't get one till 1991-12).


Thus ends my adventure w/used CD-4 disc, no more used CD-4 disc purchases until I get a proper CD-4 cart.


Kirk Bayne

 

[kfbkfb]

There have been allegations that this Quadradisc has reduced bass volume level, perhaps spread by matrix proponents.

I just received the (2 CD) Sony Legacy release of this album, I don't notice any increased bass volume level.

Quadraphonic sound is mentioned a few times in the enclosed booklet and the special gold and black Quadradisc sticker is shown as is the orange RCA QuadraDisc record label although the CD booklet front cover is mysteriously missing the "QuadraDisc" logo (same as the left image on the QQ RCA label page). There's no mention of how the Quadraphonic original audio was converted to stereo for the CD (probably just added LF and LB for L and RF and RB for R)


Kirk Bayne

 

[MidiMagic]

Just play it without the demodulator?

 

[kfbkfb]

Sony has the multichannel master tapes, the CD set says the rehearsal audio is remixed, but the original (quad) mix isn't remixed (RCA didn't make a separate stereo mix, the stereo is just the CD-4 downmix), evidently that's how the stereo was created for the CD.


Kirk Bayne

 

[Doug G.]

On the bass thing, it was a live recording and they are often maybe lacking a bit in bass compared to a studio recording where more control is possible. That being said, I think this sounds fine.

Those dang matrix freaks spread a lot of lies about CD-4, didn't they.



Doug

 

[par4ken]

https://worldradiohistory.com/Archi...eo/70s/HiFi-Stereo-Review-1974-02.pdf#page=34
The only CD-4 cartridge I bought (still packed away) was a Grado FTR+1 (my turntable didn't have low capacitance tonearm wiring), it has a conical stylus, I never got to try it w/CD-4 demod (didn't get one till 1991-12).


Thus ends my adventure w/used CD-4 disc, no more used CD-4 disc purchases until I get a proper CD-4 cart.


Kirk Bayne

That model Grado is the cartridge that I used for years, I thought that it blew away the sound of the Shure M91-ED, that I had used previously.

I always had trouble with the inner grooves of CD-4 though. Back then I didn't bother with low capacitance cables as the Grado was supposed to work without them. It's interesting to read Grado's adjustment procedure. It says to crank up the carrier level to max and set the separation controls midway, and not to use the adjustment record! That just doesn't seem very precise or scientific to me!

 

[kfbkfb]

I used my Grado FTR+1 for about a year, IIRC, stylus replacement on the Grado wasn't as simple as on Shure carts. The Grado treble boost was audible even with my smaller Advent speakers.


I went over to Mills Records in Westport today to search for another used CD-4 disc, I looked all thru their used record section several times, asked the clerk if they had a Quad section, he said the Quad albums were mixed in with all the others, just as I was leaving, I glanced over at the display in front of the entrance and there was the "Stardrive" CD-4 disc, bought it, it plays better than my Elvis CD-4 disc, but it's now audibly clear that my Shure V15 3 isn't going to work well for CD-4 playback.


Kirk Bayne

 

[kfbkfb]

I always had trouble with the inner grooves of CD-4 though. Back then I didn't bother with low capacitance cables as the Grado was supposed to work without them. It's interesting to read Grado's adjustment procedure. It says to crank up the carrier level to max and set the separation controls midway, and not to use the adjustment record! That just doesn't seem very precise or scientific to me!

https://worldradiohistory.com/Archive-All-Audio/Archive-Audio/70s/Audio-1974-03.pdf#page=46I don't recall the CD-4 setup instructions with the FTR+1, Audio mag doesn't mention that there is anything unusual about the Grado CD-4 setup procedure.

Strangely, the Audio mag article graphs don't show channel separation above 20kHz, which is an important issue with CD-4.


Kirk Bayne

 

[par4ken]

https://worldradiohistory.com/Archive-All-Audio/Archive-Audio/70s/Audio-1974-03.pdf#page=46I don't recall the CD-4 setup instructions with the FTR+1, Audio mag doesn't mention that there is anything unusual about the Grado CD-4 setup procedure.

Strangely, the Audio mag article graphs don't show channel separation above 20kHz, which is an important issue with CD-4.


Kirk Bayne

Sorry I had the Grado F-1+ The F-1+ has a special stylus shape. The FTR+ with a conical stylus would not be very good for CD-4, I don't see the FTR+1 listed. There is a FTE+1 (elliptical) listed though.

I wonder about stylus replacements, at some point in the eighties the replacement stylus had a different number. It was beige instead of black but still had the two blue dots.

Today apparently the proper stylus is the black one with the two gold dots. The cheaper stylus with the two blue dots I believe is elliptical, it will fit but would be no good for CD-4.