Floyd / Guthrie Say Your Rear 5.1 Speakers Belong In The Corners!

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AYanguas

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I can't listen to music on headphones, I hate it. They produce a soundstage entirely inside my head spread between my ears, and music just does not sound like that in the real world. It's supposed to be spread out all around me and none of it inside my head.

You are not prepared for modern times. Listen to everything with earbuds, it's the fashion :ROFLMAO:
 

barfle

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Blending probably wasn't the right word. It's more of a balance thing. My problem is that my room dictates that the rears are much closer to the listening position than the fronts and center speakers. If I aim the rears at the listening position then my ears tend to "lock-on" to the rears. Aiming the rears at the back wall overcomes this problem. I find that this layout gives me the best balance between the fronts/center and the rears.
Ahh, sort of the same effect the Bose 901s used with their “direct/reflecting” idea. Hey, if it works for you, you don’t need MY approval!
 

ar surround

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You are not prepared for modern times. Listen to everything with earbuds, it's the fashion :ROFLMAO:
Preferably with a friend so that each of you can use one earbud. Stilly young people. I was NEVER young. :ROFLMAO:

Ironically in my job I write firmware for Bluetooth chips that mostly go into earbuds.
If they were associated with my job, I would hate headphones and earbuds too.

The center images from headphones never seem to render in the middle of my head, but rather on top of it like a hat.
 

MidiMagic

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I thought I read somewhere that a Center Back phantom image can often seem to be emanating from in front of the listener. So yes, it would seem that precise placement of the rears is critical for that situation.

I know that that placing an image between the front and side speakers in 5.1 does not work all that well as noted in section 3.4 of this white paper.

This explains the cogging effect I was describing in another thread.
 

AYanguas

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Preferably with a friend so that each of you can use one earbud. Stilly young people. I was NEVER young. :ROFLMAO:

Who needs stereo? Just Mono. Who needs the complete two channels? Just with one stereo channel is enough.🤣
Difficult to explain what is the advantage of stereo to some people...

The center images from headphones never seem to render in the middle of my head, but rather on top of it like a hat.
This is exactly what I hear in my home cinema discrete speakers with the surrounds at the side location (90º). For some 'stereo' content in the surrounds I hear the sound like coming from the ceiling. That would be the 'center image'. The rest of sound I hear is 'inside my head' sometimes.

This is nice for me.
 

ar surround

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The center images from headphones never seem to render in the middle of my head, but rather on top of it like a hat.

This is exactly what I hear in my home cinema discrete speakers with the surrounds at the side location (90º). For some 'stereo' content in the surrounds I hear the sound like coming from the ceiling. That would be the 'center image'. The rest of sound I hear is 'inside my head' sometimes.

This is nice for me.
Well, that sounds like getting quasi-Atmos for free.
 

quicksrt

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I'm glad everyone else has a living room large enough to put those rear speakers in the back corners and move the couch or chairs slightly up towards the fronts.

And its also interesting how popular headphone and earbud listening has become in the surround world lately. Many recent posts on this new phenomenon.

:D;)
 

mutant_matt

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I can't listen to music on headphones, I hate it. They produce a soundstage entirely inside my head spread between my ears, and music just does not sound like that in the real world. It's supposed to be spread out all around me and none of it inside my head.
I still have a "portable music player" (didn't want to call it an MP3 player as I use it with flac files), running the Rockbox software (Sansa Clip, remember those? ;) ). That has a setting (adjustable) to "bleed" some of the right speaker output into the left and vice versa, to make the headphones experience far more like the non-headphones "real world" experience. I like this setting! :)
 

Owen Smith

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And its also interesting how popular headphone and earbud listening has become in the surround world lately. Many recent posts on this new phenomenon.
Children will soon be born with earbuds already fitted, it's in development now (honest). Might as well be given some of them never take their earbuds out.

I've not heard any surround over earbuds or headphones that doesn't sound to me as artificial and wrong as stereo does over earbuds/headphones.
 

JediJoker

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That has a setting (adjustable) to "bleed" some of the right speaker output into the left and vice versa, to make the headphones experience far more like the non-headphones "real world" experience.
The term for this is "crossfeed." It's a useful feature, for sure.
 

Owen Smith

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Wendy Carlos has quite a bit to say about surround and speaker placement: Wendy Carlos Gosurround
My speakers are positioned in pretty much the only places they will fit in the room, including the rears on wall brackets firing upwards at the ceiling due to sofa against the back wall and no space or usable walls to the sides. The front left and right channels are equally constrained, they're close to the left and right side walls. If I try to put them anywhere else they end up in the way and I have to walk around them. The centre speaker is under the TV in my main rack so is probably fairly well located anyway, and being a Castle Keep it fires at a slight upwards angle to compensate for being sited low. The only freedom I have is I could move the rear speaker wall brackets closer together and make them even more behind me, but everything I've read says this would make things worse. My layout is a compromise for sure, but the only way to change it would be to move house.

I also have no subwoofer because there isn't anywhere to put one. But with my front speakers being floor standing Castle Harlechs (about 25 years old!) I don't think I'm missing out. I get plenty of bass. I get so much in fact that if I tell my AVR or Oppo 95 that I have no sub so they mix the sub channel into front left and right, bass is so overwhelming in films I get complaints from the neighbours. It also sounds excessive to me. So I tell my AVR and Oppo 95 I have a sub even though don't.
 

Kal Rubinson

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I also have no subwoofer because there isn't anywhere to put one. But with my front speakers being floor standing Castle Harlechs (about 25 years old!) I don't think I'm missing out. I get plenty of bass. I get so much in fact that if I tell my AVR or Oppo 95 that I have no sub so they mix the sub channel into front left and right, bass is so overwhelming in films I get complaints from the neighbours. It also sounds excessive to me. So I tell my AVR and Oppo 95 I have a sub even though don't.
If you are lying to your audio system, how can you expect it to be honest? o_O
 
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~dave~~wave~

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Wendy Carlos has quite a bit to say about surround and speaker placement: Wendy Carlos Gosurround

Every opinion herein rests on several reasonable experiments and follow-ups carried out over a lifetime.
That certainly in no way implies any pose of "infallibility."
...I encourage each of you to try things out, discover like I've discovered, what actually works for ear, and what is only visual chauvinism at work again in audio -- where it sure doesn't belong.



Different strokes for different folks.
Saw the below years ago, took it under consideration, experimented.
Decided it works best for me in my space for now.
Now have validation from Guthrie. 😇 😇


Screen Shot 2022-09-29 at 11.06.34 AM.png



Her rear wall doubling-up of small speakers is interesting. :unsure:


Screen Shot 2022-09-29 at 11.08.05 AM.png
 

ar surround

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I get plenty of bass. I get so much in fact that if I tell my AVR or Oppo 95 that I have no sub so they mix the sub channel into front left and right, bass is so overwhelming in films I get complaints from the neighbours. It also sounds excessive to me. So I tell my AVR and Oppo 95 I have a sub even though don't.

I output via HDMI from an Oppo 205. Does your AVR have a LFE volume control? My Marantz AVR allows me to lower the LFE volume when it detects the stream. I have it set at -5dB, otherwise there is too much bass.
 

harync

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Stick those two extra little speakers up on the ceiling and you've got basic Atmos. LOL
My 5.2.4 set-up essentially looks like this! Rear height speakers in place of the surrounds at the bottom of the Wendy Carlos image, along with front height speakers halfway between the central listening position and the fronts. Thank goodness for room calibration tools in AVRs to help smooth over the physical limitations of listening rooms.
 
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