They did do that!
Gain Riding Logic - did it ever sound good?
- Thread starter kfbkfb
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I thought CBS indicated that any discrete quad master recording could be run thru an SQ encoder and not monitored with an SQ decoder, that the SQ matrix was "transparent".
Kirk Bayne
Kirk Bayne
I don't think that they ever said that! It could be mostly transparent if the forward oriented version was used, but absolutely no Cb in that case. CBS mix's were made to shine in SQ. When listening to the discrete versions at times the recordings are too discrete sounding, a bit over the top. I love them anyway SQ decoded or discrete!
https://worldradiohistory.com/Archive-All-Audio/Archive-Audio/70s/Audio-1971-10.pdf#page=19^^^
...practically any tape can readily be encoded into a decodable SQ record.
Found it...I remembered reading this decades ago, this is what I was thinking about when I made the above post (it seems to me that there are some extravagant claims in the SQ article though, but they only mention gain riding logic for channel separation enhancement).
Kirk Bayne
...practically any tape can readily be encoded into a decodable SQ record.
Found it...I remembered reading this decades ago, this is what I was thinking about when I made the above post (it seems to me that there are some extravagant claims in the SQ article though, but they only mention gain riding logic for channel separation enhancement).
Kirk Bayne
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Sure it can but best results were done when the position encoder was used and with the results monitored via a full-logic decoder. That is a very early article and Ben always made rather extravagant claims. Gain riding logic was first suggested (and patented) by Peter Scheiber as far as I know. At that early date there was no vario-matrix, instead Sansui was playing around with their phase modulation technique to try to synthesize surround sound.
Early decoders used no logic but still often managed to sound good. Early SQ encodes sound best (most noticeable separation) through a super decoder i.e. Audionics/Fosgate. Encodes mixed especially for SQ sound good with most any SQ decoder.
national-kid
Active Member
When listening to a QS sound source on 2ch, it is known that the sound on the left rear is heard from the left outside of the front speaker, and the sound on the right rear is heard from the right outside of the front speaker. (The result is the same even if you actually hear it)
However,
When listening to the SQ sound source on 2ch, the sound on the right rear is heard a little to the left from the center of the front speaker, and the sound on the left rear is heard a little to the right from the center of the front speaker. It seems that the left and right are reversed from Sony's announcement. (People other than me also confirmed the phenomenon)
The attachment is Sony's announcement and how it actually sounds.
The intro of "Chase" is easy to understand.
Attachments
I've listened to my few SQ LPs in stereo most of the time (I have an old Pioneer QX-747 receiver w/SQ, but I haven't switched it on in about 30 years).
I'll have to get out my demo SQ LP with the Chase "Open Up Wide" song and try it in stereo and see where the sounds appear.
Just found this, not sure if it's SQ or stereo (maybe a QQ member could check this YouTube audio w/SQ decoder):
edit: listening to this YouTube audio in stereo, the 4 sounds at the beginning do go L(LF), R(RF), LC(RB), RC(LB) [listening with both speakers and headphones], just as you have posted!
Kirk Bayne
I'll have to get out my demo SQ LP with the Chase "Open Up Wide" song and try it in stereo and see where the sounds appear.
Just found this, not sure if it's SQ or stereo (maybe a QQ member could check this YouTube audio w/SQ decoder):
edit: listening to this YouTube audio in stereo, the 4 sounds at the beginning do go L(LF), R(RF), LC(RB), RC(LB) [listening with both speakers and headphones], just as you have posted!
Kirk Bayne
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national-kid
Active Member
This is a reference sound source.
Supplement.
Please note that recent reissues of chase have been remixed to stereo and may not be original.
Those are some really cool lights indicating the sound direction.
(I believe the YouTube audio is SQ encoded)
Any chance of you designing and building a super-duper CD-4 demodulator?
Kirk Bayne
(I believe the YouTube audio is SQ encoded)
Any chance of you designing and building a super-duper CD-4 demodulator?
Kirk Bayne
I love this, especially with the funky lights. I really need to get a 12 unit set of lighted dB meters...with blue backlighting of course!
The theory as presented by Ben Bauer is that the sound will be heard shifted toward the side with the leading phase. That makes sense to me, but I can't say that I really notice it. What you are saying is that the reverse is true. The image shift is toward the lagging phase.
national-kid
Active Member
As a result of experiment and confirmation, the way the sound was heard was different when the phase was out of phase and when the time was out of sync.
The sound has moved towards the channel where the "time is advanced".
The sound has moved towards the channel where the "phase is delayed".
Please experiment.
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MidiMagic
2K Club - QQ Super Nova
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It may depend in what direction the actual first sound to reach the ear comes from.
Since psi networks used for these phase shifts, the direction of the first sound to actually reach an ear may depend on the design of the psi network, the highest frequency of the recorded sound, and the frequency responses of the sound system and of the ears.
Since psi networks used for these phase shifts, the direction of the first sound to actually reach an ear may depend on the design of the psi network, the highest frequency of the recorded sound, and the frequency responses of the sound system and of the ears.
Yes I'll have to experiment. I've never given it much thought. It always seemed to me that the back channels were reproduced without a distinct position when listened to in stereo. Critics described SQ mixes as sounding "foggy" due to the phasyness. Personally I like the effect, it adds a sort of richness to the stereo mix!
Many variables to what you hear! In general I find that signals that are not in phase reproduce without a definite position but do produce a larger more spacious sound. One reason that simple decoders can sound good (spacious) even with very little actual separation.
national-kid
Active Member
For experiments,
As a signal with a phase difference between Lch and Rch,
1) White noize for 20 seconds,
2) Pink noize for 20 seconds,
3) Brown noise For 20 seconds,
I tried to generate.
-* deg means that Lch is * degrees ahead of Rch.
+* deg means that Rch is * degrees ahead of Lch.
320kbps MP3
1. 0deg.mp3
2. +45deg.mp3
3. -45deg.mp3
4. +90deg.mp3
5. -90deg.mp3
6. +135deg.mp3
7. -135deg.mp3
8. 180deg.mp3
http://www.sky.hi-ho.ne.jp/odaka2/test/test-mp3.zip
As a signal with a phase difference between Lch and Rch,
1) White noize for 20 seconds,
2) Pink noize for 20 seconds,
3) Brown noise For 20 seconds,
I tried to generate.
-* deg means that Lch is * degrees ahead of Rch.
+* deg means that Rch is * degrees ahead of Lch.
320kbps MP3
1. 0deg.mp3
2. +45deg.mp3
3. -45deg.mp3
4. +90deg.mp3
5. -90deg.mp3
6. +135deg.mp3
7. -135deg.mp3
8. 180deg.mp3
http://www.sky.hi-ho.ne.jp/odaka2/test/test-mp3.zip
national-kid
Active Member
I copied the link address and downloaded it directly by browser and it was successful.
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Seems to be a Firefox browser issue - just got the 18.3 MB download with the Edge browser.
I'll listen carefully to the test signals tomorrow (I'm using Polk Audio T15 speakers placed a little above ear level [as Polk recommends]), the SQ in stereo imaging (Chase song) was just as you described using these speakers (and verified with Sony headphones).
It does seem like CBS/Bauer made a mistake in selecting the phase angles for encoding LB and RB, if they were reversed, then the SQ to stereo folddown would be as the Audio magazine SQ article diagram shows.
Kirk Bayne
I'll listen carefully to the test signals tomorrow (I'm using Polk Audio T15 speakers placed a little above ear level [as Polk recommends]), the SQ in stereo imaging (Chase song) was just as you described using these speakers (and verified with Sony headphones).
It does seem like CBS/Bauer made a mistake in selecting the phase angles for encoding LB and RB, if they were reversed, then the SQ to stereo folddown would be as the Audio magazine SQ article diagram shows.
Kirk Bayne
national-kid
Active Member
For experiments,
As a signal with a time difference between Lch and Rch,
1) White noize for 60 seconds (It's a little hard to recognize)
2) Pink noize for 60 seconds
3) Brown noise For 60 seconds
I tried to generate.
Time difference between Lch and Rch of each signal,
15 seconds 0ms to -10ms (move from center to left)
30 seconds -10ms to +10ms (move from left to right)
15 seconds +10ms to 0ms (move from right to center)
320kbps MP3
1. delay.mp3
http://www.sky.hi-ho.ne.jp/odaka2/test/delay.zip
As a signal with a time difference between Lch and Rch,
1) White noize for 60 seconds (It's a little hard to recognize)
2) Pink noize for 60 seconds
3) Brown noise For 60 seconds
I tried to generate.
Time difference between Lch and Rch of each signal,
15 seconds 0ms to -10ms (move from center to left)
30 seconds -10ms to +10ms (move from left to right)
15 seconds +10ms to 0ms (move from right to center)
320kbps MP3
1. delay.mp3
http://www.sky.hi-ho.ne.jp/odaka2/test/delay.zip
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