HiRez Poll Genesis - THE LAMB LIES DOWN ON BROADWAY [SACD] (UK)

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Rate the SACD of Genesis - THE LAMB LIES DOWN ON BROADWAY

  • 6:

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • 5:

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • 4:

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • 3:

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • 2:

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • 1: Poor Surround, Poor Sonics, Poor Content

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    72
This is my second foray into the world of "Peter Gabriel era" Genesis (I started with "Foxtrot"). This is a fantastic album! The music on Disc One is perfect from start to finish; Disc Two is a little spotty for me, but there are some cool songs there as well. The surround mix is stellar!!! So much discrete, adventurous activity in the rear channels throughout the album; I havn't heard all the Genesis surround mixes yet, but this sounds like the best surround mix so far. In terms of fidelity, the high end is a little on the "Extra Crispy" side (I'm an Original Recipe man, myself), but not at all unpleasant (as opposed to the "Phil Collins era" surround SACDs). Content=3/3; Fidelity=2.5/3; Surround=3/3; 1 bonus point for being a double album, so 9.5 rounds to 10.
 
The Gabriel box 1970-1975 was the last box of studio albums released and benefited from previous experience and Peter Gabriel‘s input to be more adventurous as the story goes. There’s a lot to enjoy here.


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So after a (somewhat disappointing) listen to the 1983 Genesis album, I decided to switch gears and put on the only album from the Gabriel era that I hadn't listened to yet in my current Genesis binge: The Lamb. A significantly more enjoyable experience on every level over the 1983 album. When I've been listening to these albums this time out, I've known that I would be writing a review so I've kept a blank file open in notepad to make a note of any highlights. (My memory is crap and I'd probably forget half of what I wanted to say by the time the disc was over!) As this disc began, I started keeping notes as usual, but I realized that so many highlights were coming at me so fast and furious that it was a futile effort to try to keep up. By the time I hit the sixth song, I had given up.

On Trespass and Nursery Cryme, Nick Davis seemed to favor a lot of hard panning (especially of keyboard and guitar parts) in the rear speakers. I really loved that approach. On Foxtrot and Selling England By the Pound he seemed to ease up on this a bit and started to use a somewhat more immersive feel, although there were still plenty of moments of hard panning. For The Lamb, it feels as if Nick was using both approaches, the individual songs would dictate which approach was better. As the album opens with the classic piano riff in the front speakers, the fly starts buzzing around your head. Fifteen seconds in and I'm already hooked. The additional keyboards kick in and they're spread nicely around the surround field. Peter and Phil announce the album's title, their rich harmonies attack from behind, the band kicks in and we're on our way. I'm grinning like an idiot and air drumming like yet another idiot. Thankfully I am alone and there is nobody around to witness this. As the second song begins, the Mellotron choir is positioned firmly behind you. ("Something solid forming in the air" indeed....) A nice spread of guitars comes in, then once the heavy part kicks in, Hackett's guitar solo comes up from behind. (I'm not sure why people are complaining that he's buried on all these discs. Lots of moments of full-frontal (or rear-al? LOL) Steve on this album.) On "Broadway Melody" the keyboards fill up the whole room while the guitars stabs come from the rear channels. "Cuckoo Cocoon" has a nice spread of instruments around all channels with the harmony vocals effectively placed in back. When Gabriel starts chanting "round...round....round" at the end of "In the Cage" I jump a bit because it surprises me coming from alternate rear speakers. "Grand Parade" has a very playful mix that fits the mood of the song. I could go on (or could if I had kept further notes) but this mix philosophy continues throughout the discs. There are the occasional moments where the rear speakers seem to disappear. Fortunately, these don't last very long. It's very satisfying and a job well done by Mr. Davis here.

On to fidelity. On Trespass and Nursery Cryme, I was really amazed at how clear and dynamic they sounded given their age. They sound better than you would expect albums from 1970/1971 to sound. On this album, it feels very much of its time. Not quite as dynamic as the other two. But I can't really fault it for that, it was recorded in 1974 after all. Also it was not recorded in the same studio as the other two.

And the music? Well, it has always been my favorite Genesis album. So many standout moments. There are the classics that everyone loves like the title cut, "Carpet Crawlers", "Back in NYC", "In the Cage." But there are also so many deep cuts on this album that are among my favorite Genesis tunes: "The Chamber of 32 Doors", "The Light Dies Down", "Lilywhite Lilith", "Hairless Heart", "Counting Out Time"....the list goes on. There's also a blunt aggressiveness to this album that suits the story of a NYC gang member. Fans consider it part of their prog era, but it is a very different album from what proceeded it and the one that followed it. (Interestingly, I was always very amused that fans of 70's Genesis were so offended by the 1981 single "No Reply At All." It's very similar to this album's title track....just with the Earth Wind & Fire horn section added on!)

I do have to say that in recent years when I've listened to this, I've usually reached for the DVD just so I could see the slide show. But since I knew I'd be writing a review for a hi-res poll I did listen to the SACD this time out. The only major negative I can find here is that you can't have your cake and eat it too. In other words, if you want the visual experience, you have to listen lossy. If you want to listen lossless, you can't have the visuals. It's too bad Universal only got one title into their Genesis Blu-ray program. This would've been the perfect album for that.

I've now (re-)worked my way through the entirety of the Gabriel era. I gave Trespass and Nursery Cryme ratings of 10 while I gave Foxtrot and Selling England By the Pound ratings of 9. Overall I feel this falls between the two (even though it is my favorite Genesis LP.) I really love the hard panning approach on Trespass and Nursery Cryme. But this one comes very close.

It's the freakin' Lamb.

It's nice and discrete.

You get surrounded by Mellotron choirs.

10.
 
This one is the most frustrating of the remixes. Not only are Steve Hackett's electric guitar lead parts buried throughout but some of Rutherford's bass parts are turned down pretty far in spots too. The vocals are curiously 2x too loud in a lot of this. That's easy enough to adjust at least.
The mix work itself is over the top great! The drums sound amazing. But the awkward rivalry got into the mix. This got hit with the unfortunate hyped CD style treble boosting like the rest too.

There are still some just fantastic revealing moments throughout. If you're a fan, you need to hear this.
There are actually some moments where the guitar mix was really expanded. Some little parts I'd never really heard before even. The lead parts are all buried though.

I feel like the engineer left a trail of breadcrumbs here and there in defiance in these remixes. At least a few. You can find the guitar solo in Anyway isolated in the center channel for example, and turn it up if you are driven to tinker with this. Foxtrot had a few opportunities like that too.
The biggest disappointment was Cage (one of my favorite tracks). Rutherford's parts are greatness. The new remix just steps all over that and buried it along with Steve. Just botched. I was hoping Waiting Room was going to be some wild surround madness too. It was not.

Get the Classic Records 200g vinyl remasters from a few years ago for the best copies of the original stereo mixes.
 
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I'd like to buy the 1970 - 1975 box but can't decide on the DVD set for the visuals, or the SACD one with the better sound. I'm leaning towards the SACD, but the extra hundred dollars is putting me off.
 
Thanks for that bit of info. Are you satisfied with the sound though? Not too many of those SACDs
get a rating of 9 on the polls in this forum.
I am and they're loads better than the DTS.
IMO, much of the negativity toward these Genesis surround mixes comes from a purist point of view.
I have zero nostalgia for this era of Genesis. Never knew it existed a few years ago. That might help me accept the remixes a bit easier than some.
It also might be that some aren't playing back SACD with bass management... That could skew one's assessment on certain kinds of systems.
 
I am and they're loads better than the DTS.
IMO, much of the negativity toward these Genesis surround mixes comes from a purist point of view.
I have zero nostalgia for this era of Genesis. Never knew it existed a few years ago. That might help me accept the remixes a bit easier than some.
It also might be that some aren't playing back SACD with bass management... That could skew one's assessment on certain kinds of systems.

The negativity stems from 2 things.

Longtime Genesis fans were shocked by many mixing choices like using alternate lead vocals and lowering guitar tracks in favour of keyboard tracks in the mixes. I did not grow up with these albums so like many here, I don't play the Stereo remixes and enjoy the 5.1 mixes. It's always a personal preference thing. Remixing of classic albums has been the trend since the mid 2000's. Along with Genesis, other bands have seen their catalog partially or entirely remixed such as The Doors, The Beatles, and many of the bands hired by Steven Wilson like Yes, Jethro Tull, Emerson, Lake and Palmer, etc. It's always a matter of personal choice. Some of these mixes work wonders, others less so. If lead vocals had been changed in the remixes of Abbey Road, I'm sure many fans would have lost their minds.

The main objection and biggest sin comes regarding the excessive compression (maximizing), harsh EQ choices and Noise Reduction levels set to kill. The music sadly suffers from this and makes listening painful after a while.

In the end, I'm just happy the band's catalog is available in 5.1 and I think we are lucky the band chose to offer these mixes to their fans. What I would give to have Multichannel mixes for Queen's and Supertramp's albums.
 
The SACD and the fully decoded dts2496 copies sound identical. Yes, dts2496 is technically lossy but it's a high level format and not a factor. (At least not a factor in any of the complaints on the mix or mastering.)

The remix that buries the lead guitar throughout is the rivalry and revisionist history form the "winners".
The combination here of some genuinely great mix work that reveals detail like never heard before combined with mixing parts of the original music out to be unheard is a shock to listen to.

The mastering compression is a mistake all right but the treble eq boost is much worse a problem. That's where the main listening fatigue would come from. The mix changes make you jump out of your chair and yell WTF?! every few minutes. The mastering is correctable and the program isn't too damaged from it once corrected but out of the box the mastering is truly crude and unwarranted in a HD release,
 
I listened to album 1 of the DTS mix tonight, switching back and forth b etween it and the original stereo mix.. (btw I'm sure that any difference in the SACD would be due to LFE differences, which are NOT inherent to SACD)

THe main problem with this mix is not lack of Hackett (I hear him just fine, though Rutherford could use more treble in the bass mix)) , it is a general *evening out* of (micro)dynamics in the original mix, overall but especially as regards lead vocal. For example,places where Peter's voice should jump out for effect ("Rael imperial aerosol kid/WIPES HIS GUN HE'S FORGOTTEN WHAT HE DID, etc) just don't happen. Other times, PG's voice , and indeed the whole band, should sound distant, smaller. To emulate the actual experience of "Cuckoo Cocoon' on the original album, for example, you;d have to lower the volume for just that song, but even that won't quite work because the fellow who remixed this put PG's voice loud and proud on every song, at every moment.

Even the fade in to the title track has been eliminated. Jesus. The dynamic and especially vocal treatment variety of the original mix of this album is part of what made it work so well The remix is not special that way. Very sad.

Again, DTS vs SACD will NOT fix such issues. Folks, stop obsessing over the unimportant.
 
Same two questions as always: is there a difference you can hear? And if so is the difference really due to the format.

The right methods to answer these questions are not widely used by audiophiles (to say the least).
 
Yes and possibly.

The fact is DTS is lossy, so let's not forget that. I have, and like, plenty of DTS titles, ranging from 44.1/16 to 96/24, so let's not write me off as a hater.
I'm also fairly frugal, so if I have A/B'ed some Genesis DTS and SACDs, then decided to invest in more SACDs, that at least ought to tell you the SACDs are more pleasing to me, on my systems.
 
The one I have copies of in both DSD and HD PCM is SEBTP. If I transcode the DSD to 32/88.2 PCM with 32:1 decimation and then normalize it to 0db, it nulls almost completely with the 24/96 PCM program from the bluray. I hear no difference A/B'ing between them (Apogee DA converters. Genelec 1032A speakers). I see some decimal dust in the meters after subtracting one from the other but hear silence (at non-lethal volume settings).

If you're looking for a variable in there and wanted to suggest that the transcode from DSD to PCM altered and invalidated this, you'd have to entertain the possibility that the alteration somehow produced a nearly perfect digital match for an audio source that was different before that. A perfect impossible coincidence.

You're A/B'ing your DSD DACs vs your PCM DACs when you hear something different. (Assuming you have carefully level matched between them and aren't just chasing a volume difference.) All good! If I'm making a point around that though, it would be that there's a way to extract the full quality of the music from either format. You might want to consider software solutions when this stuff comes up. I'm frugal myself. A different digital language (DSD) that is identical quality to HD PCM and made solely to sell different and restrictive hardware is bs to me and I'll never support it.

The loss from dts2496 is negligible to me. The mastering faux pas with the treble boost is magnitudes more apparent. And the electric guitar parts being pulled out of the mix even more so than that!

Anyway, there are bits you need to hear in these remixes as a fan. Even if you are appalled at the guitar removal and scorched mastering.
These HD formats hold some very complete sound. To the point that you can do some restoration mastering on titles like this and have more right than wrong at the end of the day if you are so inclined. Get your software and media players in order and spend your money on one set of excellent DA converters is my tip.
 
Yes and possibly.

The fact is DTS is lossy, so let's not forget that. I have, and like, plenty of DTS titles, ranging from 44.1/16 to 96/24, so let's not write me off as a hater.


I haven't forgotten. However, simply being lossy is not a guarantee that it will sound different


I'm also fairly frugal, so if I have A/B'ed some Genesis DTS and SACDs, then decided to invest in more SACDs, that at least ought to tell you the SACDs are more pleasing to me, on my systems.

For whatever reason, including different mixes, different mastering, and placebo. All three of those explanations are more likely than 'because it's SACD'.
 
I haven't forgotten. However, simply being lossy is not a guarantee that it will sound different




For whatever reason, including different mixes, different mastering, and placebo. All three of those explanations are more likely than 'because it's SACD'.
Also including systems handling the two formats differently, as Jim suggested a little while ago. You sure seem hell bent on convincing people that these Genesis SACDs sound like the DTS DVDs. What is your deal?
 
I can only share that I believe that the audio data on the 3 different formats (BD, SACD, DTS2496) sounds identical to critical standards to the point of calling it the same. It's clearly the same mix and master. It's possible to play (or decode as applies) these formats to produce the same program so identical sounding that you need to do a null test to see any slight difference.

If that helps anyone, that's my only goal there.
If you are more set up for one of those formats over the other for accurate reproduction, then you already know what to do.

This mix though...
There is something weird that maybe happened with boosting and/or limiting levels in mastering with the C channel and thus the vocal being twice the volume of everything else.
Alright, so we're listening from a DAW now with that turned down some...

So much sounds just great! Details I've never heard. I had the UK imports and then the Japanese imports and finally the Classic Records remasters from some years ago now. Those are still definitive and greatness!
Hearing all kinds of new things here though. Guitar parts even!

But how in the hell can Cage be so destroyed sounding? Stepped on that Rutherford bass part too? Seriously?!
Or the lead up to the solo in Anyway be so amazing with all these extra guitar details and then the solo itself is paper thin and in the next room?
Man...

This has to be heard to be believed and you can take that a couple different ways.
 
Also including systems handling the two formats differently, as Jim suggested a little while ago. You sure seem hell bent on convincing people that these Genesis SACDs sound like the DTS DVDs. What is your deal?



Do you think it possible you might have a confirmation bias towards SACD because, you know, it's lossless 'hi rez' and therefore by 'widely held' audiophile thinking, must sound better?
 
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