So what is the best way to address the mid bass issue?
HiRez Poll Harrison, George - ALL THINGS MUST PASS [Blu-Ray Audio (Dolby Atmos)]
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PEQ. in leu of that, a tone control may help some
jimfisheye
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You need to eq it. I suggested a -10db low shelf up to 170Hz for the front L/R pair.
If you work on audio at all, this is a pretty easy one. Do that ^^^.
No stock AV receiver tone control is going to touch this. A typical bass shelf control on a receiver is usually set to 100Hz. That would only make this worse.
If you use a media player on a computer it might have a more advanced eq option or the option to use plugins. Otherwise, ripping the files and then pulling them into a DAW is what you do. And of course to correct the Atmos version you would need the Atmos decoder codec to get a full rip. Then you'd either need to play back the corrected Atmos mix from a .wv (Wavpac) file or you'd need the Atmos encoder codec to mux to a new Atmos file. These codecs remain unreleased and are only available hidden in firmware in certain hardware AVRs and pro theater audio interfaces at present. Oh, and there's an Atmos plugin suite for Protools HD in their more recent proprietary plugin format. Note that if you are doing the workaround to use a media player but in "pass through" mode (letting the AVR decode it), altering the file is not an option.
You guys all seem hung up on the Atmos, but how is the 5.1 mix?
I don't even have Atmos.
I haven't had a chance to listen to the 5.1 yet, but the bass issue is common to both mixes.
I think that the 5.1 mix is OK, but the fidelity is mediocre to my ears. The Atmos mixed down to 5.1 or 7.1 sounds much smoother to me.
jimfisheye
2K Club - QQ Super Nova
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Nice one.
I was listening, altering, and commenting on the 5.1 mix. I listened to and mentioned the stereo mix as well. Sounds like a fold down of the surround with the boosted bass.
Not sure about this. Looking at the waveform in Audacity there appears to be no LFE activity at all but I have my bass managed at 50 hz and there is a ton of bass coming from my subs.
Elad
Active Member
I remember when this came out was not a big fan of what it sounded like and thought the songs were ok. So here we are in 2021 with the new and another over bloated box set so I can listen to one immersive disc. It almost makes what I paid for this worth it I said almost. I was amazed how good this sounded in Atmos have not listened to the 5.1 maybe I will down the road just enjoying it for what it is. Beware of darkness gives me goosebumps. almost
I have had a serious issue bloated expensive box sets with material one might listen to maybe once. We keep on buying them so we can get that one disc. In all honesty it makes no difference what we say which is to bad. I am off my proverbial soap box and yes the immersive disc is amazing.
I have had a serious issue bloated expensive box sets with material one might listen to maybe once. We keep on buying them so we can get that one disc. In all honesty it makes no difference what we say which is to bad. I am off my proverbial soap box and yes the immersive disc is amazing.
Be careful what you wish for because the time is coming - and sooner than later - when you won’t get any new surround music on physical disc.
There are several comments in this thread from members whose ears I trust. ar surround feels the 7.1 fold down has better fidelity. jimfisheye and sjcorne point out an excessive boost to the mid bass. @GOS (an admitted bass hound to begin with) and edisonbaggins feel the bass level is not an issue and is in fact a welcome improvement.
Tonight I did a very subjective comparison between the 7.1 fold down and a remastered 5.1 using the EQ recipe jimfisheye suggested.
Jim is correct, the EQing does indeed bring out the midrange nicely. On the other hand, the bass boost does grow on you. I settled on the idea that a 10dB cut takes it too far and ends up only marginally better than the original release, which I also compared as a reference on a few tracks. The original seems bass shy to me. It always has. I want some of that newly discovered bass in the surround mix. But I also want that hidden midrange detail the re-EQing brings out. It really surprised me how much the boosted bass takes away from the midrange.
I did get the feeling the fold down sounded fuller, as arsurround suggests. But I only compared it to the EQ'd 5.1, and its by no means a night and day kind of thing. It just seems more liquid and has less electronic sheen. Both are in a different ball park from my old CD, which is quite veiled by comparison.
With respect to the mix itself. It seemed the 5.1 was more discrete as sjcorne had mentioned. and it imaged slightly better on my system.
What a mixed result. I think you are all correct in your evaluations. I'm going to try the 5,1 with less bass cut, maybe only 5dB or so. Perhaps that porridge will be just right for papa bear.
So far I stand by my vote of 8. I would do 8.5 if I could. But I'm rounding down because I shouldn't have to go through all this BS. I paid for someone else to do this for me. Its a common thread for me among these Apple releases.
Tonight I did a very subjective comparison between the 7.1 fold down and a remastered 5.1 using the EQ recipe jimfisheye suggested.
Jim is correct, the EQing does indeed bring out the midrange nicely. On the other hand, the bass boost does grow on you. I settled on the idea that a 10dB cut takes it too far and ends up only marginally better than the original release, which I also compared as a reference on a few tracks. The original seems bass shy to me. It always has. I want some of that newly discovered bass in the surround mix. But I also want that hidden midrange detail the re-EQing brings out. It really surprised me how much the boosted bass takes away from the midrange.
I did get the feeling the fold down sounded fuller, as arsurround suggests. But I only compared it to the EQ'd 5.1, and its by no means a night and day kind of thing. It just seems more liquid and has less electronic sheen. Both are in a different ball park from my old CD, which is quite veiled by comparison.
With respect to the mix itself. It seemed the 5.1 was more discrete as sjcorne had mentioned. and it imaged slightly better on my system.
What a mixed result. I think you are all correct in your evaluations. I'm going to try the 5,1 with less bass cut, maybe only 5dB or so. Perhaps that porridge will be just right for papa bear.
So far I stand by my vote of 8. I would do 8.5 if I could. But I'm rounding down because I shouldn't have to go through all this BS. I paid for someone else to do this for me. Its a common thread for me among these Apple releases.
I don't think anyone is wishing for the demise of physical media, but I will not refrain from griping about and passing on expensive box sets whose padded contents include little of interest to me except for one high resolution / surround disc. If you are a collector, completist or OK with a big boxset price, go for it. I just wish all artists and record companies would have a little more regard for the surround sound community and offer smaller standalone surround releases. Even if that means delayed release dates or digital downloads (5.1 flac, lossless MKV atmos files, etc.) are the only alternatives to big boxsets, in many cases that's an option I'd like to have. Thankfully there are many artists and companies willing to do just that, even though paid subscription streaming is probably where everything is eventually headed.
tarkusnj
300 Club - QQ All-Star
Can anyone clearly explain how to rip the 7.1 atmos track? When I have tried to rip it, my software shows 7.1 but the resulting rip is 5.1. I have never had this problem before be this disc.
Rip the 7.1 audio layer with MakeMKV. Be sure you have chosen the 7.1 master track in the MKV menu. Uncheck everything else. If you are shooting for Atmos playback, you are done. The MKV will include the metadata. Play that back directly.
If you are shooting for 7.1 FLAC with no Atmos capability, use Audiomuxer to convert the resulting MKV. In the tools menu, choose "extract audio from MKV"
jimfisheye
2K Club - QQ Super Nova
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That might be more correct there. I tried to guess quick to make a less confusing example because I went about the correction in a roundabout way. (I'm aware of the correct math but not off the top of my head and I'm a little lazy so I guessed at -10db.)
I started with a linear phase cross-over style eq that let me mute/solo the bands. I listened with the lowest band muted and moved the frequency to hear where the bass started blooming - if that was to happen. That happened. It was 170Hz and it was the same for every song.
Then I made a mix of the bass cut track with the original (effectively making a bass shelf attenuation). I'm listening to just the front pair for all this. I wanted to keep the balance control as it were on faders instead of inside the eq plugin because.
Then I balanced that new front pair (with the effective bass eq cut) with the rear pair. Then brought in the center and decided that had to come down 2db.
There sure isn't anything wrong with the bass itself! It's just a lopsided listen out of the box. Like if you had your balance control 75% to one side in stereo. I'm not trying to turn down the too loud part per say. Just trying to bring back the rest. And with audio gain staging, turning something up usually translates to turning everything else down.
tarkusnj
300 Club - QQ All-Star
Thank you for the explanation, I didn't realize there was a selection menu in MakeMKV so I finally was able to see the 7.1 and rip it then extract the audio to flac successfully.
I gave it an eight. I toyed with a seven, but the material is so strong. Probably a 9 for material and a 6 for fidelity. I played the Atmos mix downmixed to 5.1. I tried the native 5.1 in several spots but found the Atmos to sound better.
I'm sure they did the best they could with it, but I suspect technical limitations in the original multis restricted just what they could do. I found certain elements to be more clear and distinct than they ever have been (guitars, vocals) and others to have the same muddy presentation they always did (percussion, strings, horns). The most obvious example of this was on "What is Life". When the lead part started in the rears my ears perked up. It sounded great and this has always been my favorite song from the album. Then the bass came from the front/sub and I started getting excited. Then the band kicked in and the whole thing fell apart. It went right back to Spector's blob of sound. Most disappointing is the fuzzy, ill defined tambourine coming from all speakers at once. BTW, I don't understand the people who were complaining about the bass level. On my system the bass levels were fine. It never would have even occurred to me to consider that they might be a problem if people here hadn't mentioned it.
Don't get me wrong, this is still probably the best this material will ever sound, but I can't see how people are giving it a 10. I reserve tens for demo disc level material. This is a strong presentation of a classic album, but it is decidedly NOT a demo disc. On the polls right now (of course this may change) this is ranked higher than Moondance, Wish You Were Here and Bob Marley Legend. Those are demo discs, this is not. I think that once the excitement and newness wears off most people will agree with me.
I'm sure they did the best they could with it, but I suspect technical limitations in the original multis restricted just what they could do. I found certain elements to be more clear and distinct than they ever have been (guitars, vocals) and others to have the same muddy presentation they always did (percussion, strings, horns). The most obvious example of this was on "What is Life". When the lead part started in the rears my ears perked up. It sounded great and this has always been my favorite song from the album. Then the bass came from the front/sub and I started getting excited. Then the band kicked in and the whole thing fell apart. It went right back to Spector's blob of sound. Most disappointing is the fuzzy, ill defined tambourine coming from all speakers at once. BTW, I don't understand the people who were complaining about the bass level. On my system the bass levels were fine. It never would have even occurred to me to consider that they might be a problem if people here hadn't mentioned it.
Don't get me wrong, this is still probably the best this material will ever sound, but I can't see how people are giving it a 10. I reserve tens for demo disc level material. This is a strong presentation of a classic album, but it is decidedly NOT a demo disc. On the polls right now (of course this may change) this is ranked higher than Moondance, Wish You Were Here and Bob Marley Legend. Those are demo discs, this is not. I think that once the excitement and newness wears off most people will agree with me.
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ngv99
Senior Member
I listened to it a couple of times over the weekend again, and I've decided to change my vote. I think I was overly-excited about having one of my all-time favorite albums in surround, and while this is a very solid disc, it's not something that I feel deserves a 10. It is very front heavy and not as discrete as I believed at first listen. That said, I do enjoy the mix overall and it's worth repeated listens, as it's still such a great album. I'm lowering my vote to an 8.
I voted 10.
This 1970 release is so highly respected and enjoyed by millions, it's hard for me to not have the expectaion of a 10 going in.
My purchase was the Japanese edtion with 16/44.1 SHM CD's and the Blu Ray.
Box Set: slightly dissapointed with the smaller size, would have liked it at lease equal to the John Lennon sizes. That said, really nicely put together, easy to get book, poster and discs out. Discs fit just right in there paper sleeves. The book was perfect for my brain, just the right amount of info. Not like a Jethro Tull box set which takes weeks to read.
CD's 1 & 2: Orginal album with the 2020 stereo mixes. I have not listened.
CD's 3, 4, & 5: I really loved these 3 discs, when I listened it put me in a mellow place. Many tracks George and guitar, other tracks with band. CD 3, mostly Take 1's with a few 2's & 3's. CD 4, all take 1's. CD 5, Track 1 "Isn't A Pity" Take 14, is really funny. These are recording session outakes so you can really hear the album develop.
One thing I noticed on all 3 of these discs in stereo that George's vocals lay pretty center, which suprised me, I did not have any expectation, but so many stereo recordings from that era, are ie; vocal left, guitar right, you know that kind. I was extremely pleased with the stereo imaging of the 3 extras discs. The DR's for the 3 discs are mostly 9's, 10's, 11's.
Blu Ray Disc: The stereo 24/192 2.0 is just superb, really crisp with great stereo sound stage. Love the stereo. The DR's are mostly 6's and 7's, suprising.
5.1 DTS-HD master: Pretty good, nice surround, great fidelity, little discrete moments here and there. Unfortunately I listened to the 5.1 after the Dolby Atmos and they just don't compare.
Dolby Atmos: This is what we wanted and this is what we got, wow, beautiful is all I can call it. These great songs that I love listening to even on my phone in MP3, now in Dolby Atmos in my listening space with home rig. Plays at 24/48. DR's are 9, 10's, 11's, 12's. Comfortable listening was at 66db. My 4 height speakers where fully active the entire play through. This is a plus as some Atmos mixes have a hard time really firing the heights. The feel was the imersive bubble, fully engulfed. Little artifacts pop through discretely here and there. Don't expect anything like Ringo's drum solo blasting down from the heights, awesome, in Abbey Road's Atmos, The End.
Tracks 19-23 are really non existent ATMOS, these extended jams fire the heights barely, center channel is inactive, and rears are used a bit immersively. These 5 tracks are at best enhanced stereo.
My system: 5 on the floor, 3 subs, 4 recessed ceiling speakers.
Playback: All discs where ripped and listened to the ripped versions except the Atmos, I just had to right away. But then ripped later.
For all music (the CD's) except Atmos it is JRiver player USB out from dedicated PC to Pre/Pro. For Dolby Atmos listening it is HDMI out from the same dedicated PC to the same Pre/Pro which grabs and plays the Dolby Atmos signal.
Ripping: THe SHM CD's where ripped via Windows Media Player to FLAC.
The Blu Ray was ripped using MakeMKV which grabs the audio and video from the Blu Ray depending on my selection. Flawless, never a problem. I only use MakeMKV for BD ripping, nothing else.
Then the next step is to use Music Media Helper (MMH), this paticular recording I split into chapters (songs) as none of the tracks are gapless with this recording. Thats it, play away.
Thank you, I had a good time writing this and more than anything listening to this monumental album in a version that is the best I ever heard, thats for sure.
Keep poll threads pure, no off topic chatter.
This 1970 release is so highly respected and enjoyed by millions, it's hard for me to not have the expectaion of a 10 going in.
My purchase was the Japanese edtion with 16/44.1 SHM CD's and the Blu Ray.
Box Set: slightly dissapointed with the smaller size, would have liked it at lease equal to the John Lennon sizes. That said, really nicely put together, easy to get book, poster and discs out. Discs fit just right in there paper sleeves. The book was perfect for my brain, just the right amount of info. Not like a Jethro Tull box set which takes weeks to read.
CD's 1 & 2: Orginal album with the 2020 stereo mixes. I have not listened.
CD's 3, 4, & 5: I really loved these 3 discs, when I listened it put me in a mellow place. Many tracks George and guitar, other tracks with band. CD 3, mostly Take 1's with a few 2's & 3's. CD 4, all take 1's. CD 5, Track 1 "Isn't A Pity" Take 14, is really funny. These are recording session outakes so you can really hear the album develop.
One thing I noticed on all 3 of these discs in stereo that George's vocals lay pretty center, which suprised me, I did not have any expectation, but so many stereo recordings from that era, are ie; vocal left, guitar right, you know that kind. I was extremely pleased with the stereo imaging of the 3 extras discs. The DR's for the 3 discs are mostly 9's, 10's, 11's.
Blu Ray Disc: The stereo 24/192 2.0 is just superb, really crisp with great stereo sound stage. Love the stereo. The DR's are mostly 6's and 7's, suprising.
5.1 DTS-HD master: Pretty good, nice surround, great fidelity, little discrete moments here and there. Unfortunately I listened to the 5.1 after the Dolby Atmos and they just don't compare.
Dolby Atmos: This is what we wanted and this is what we got, wow, beautiful is all I can call it. These great songs that I love listening to even on my phone in MP3, now in Dolby Atmos in my listening space with home rig. Plays at 24/48. DR's are 9, 10's, 11's, 12's. Comfortable listening was at 66db. My 4 height speakers where fully active the entire play through. This is a plus as some Atmos mixes have a hard time really firing the heights. The feel was the imersive bubble, fully engulfed. Little artifacts pop through discretely here and there. Don't expect anything like Ringo's drum solo blasting down from the heights, awesome, in Abbey Road's Atmos, The End.
Tracks 19-23 are really non existent ATMOS, these extended jams fire the heights barely, center channel is inactive, and rears are used a bit immersively. These 5 tracks are at best enhanced stereo.
My system: 5 on the floor, 3 subs, 4 recessed ceiling speakers.
Playback: All discs where ripped and listened to the ripped versions except the Atmos, I just had to right away. But then ripped later.
For all music (the CD's) except Atmos it is JRiver player USB out from dedicated PC to Pre/Pro. For Dolby Atmos listening it is HDMI out from the same dedicated PC to the same Pre/Pro which grabs and plays the Dolby Atmos signal.
Ripping: THe SHM CD's where ripped via Windows Media Player to FLAC.
The Blu Ray was ripped using MakeMKV which grabs the audio and video from the Blu Ray depending on my selection. Flawless, never a problem. I only use MakeMKV for BD ripping, nothing else.
Then the next step is to use Music Media Helper (MMH), this paticular recording I split into chapters (songs) as none of the tracks are gapless with this recording. Thats it, play away.
Thank you, I had a good time writing this and more than anything listening to this monumental album in a version that is the best I ever heard, thats for sure.
Keep poll threads pure, no off topic chatter.
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