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"Home Made" DTS and DVD-A Conversions of 1970's Quadraphonic releases

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JonUrban

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Folks,

I need to clarify a QQ policy about these conversions.

At QQ, it is OK to discuss (in the forum itself):
  • Creating conversions of your own owned recordings
  • Seeking others to do conversions for you of YOUR OWN recordings
  • Tips and help on how to do your own conversion
  • Help with DVD and CD burning programs - not specific to any title (i.e. DSOTM)
  • Help with audio PC programs
  • Discussion of the quality of converted material
  • Discuss "underground" Frankenstien discs (TOUP, etc)
  • Discuss "underground" distributed discs (Fostex, DSOTM, etc)
It is NOT OK to do the following (in the forum):
  • ASK where you can BUY someone elses conversion
  • ASK how to and or where to get "underground" conversions
  • SELL your own conversions
  • SELL any "underground" or previously obtained conversions from anywhere
  • Offer for trade any "underground" or previously obtained conversions from anywhere
On the QQ home page, there are links to those who provide a conversion service for those without the proper equipment. If you want your name added to these lists, please let me know.

What happens in PMs is private and between members, what happens in the open forums must fall within the above guidlines. Despite the fact that we are a small community that has little or no participation from the companies we support, I do not want QQ to become a trader haven for questionalble material. We support the advancement of surround music and the studios who spend the money to get the stuff released.

I try to keep QQ free of ads and free of heavy moderation. In return, all I ask is that you abide by a few common sense rules.

Thanks
 

vonwegen

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Where exactly are those links you mentioned in your post? In the Swap area?
 

The Observatory

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Thanks for directions on those links. I am new here, just completed the form with my data.

Starting at the top of the forum list, I ended up here. One non-initiated question from a foreigner (Swiss) - what is "underground", illegal copies? (Oops, should not use that word?).

I'll be posting my system(s) and questions this evening after having read more.

Arthur
 
Last edited:

winopener

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Arthur,
welcome to this crazy bunch of quadraholics. I'm glad another european found and joined this board.
What "part" of switzerland? Ita, Ger, Fra?
 

The Observatory

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You mean to say, I have come to another one of those places where people forget the world has moved on some 30 years - and still enjoy it!

To answer your question, I live in Alterswil, close to Fribourg, in the German speaking part of the Canton.

Always have been (from the very early days of Quad) interested in the possibilities of achieving the ultimate reproduction in sound, knowing full well that it cannot approach a live performance. Primarily interested in instrumental and vocal classical music ('primarily' - does not exclude pop or other music). Key experiences have kept this up throughout the years, like having Yehudi Menuhin standing about 10 feet away from me when he played his beloved Beethoven D-major concerto for the last time in the church in Saanen. Still makes me shiver. And I will not forget that Stradivarius sound.

Then I ventured into the modern arena of CD, and associated surround sound experiments and discovered that this medium has room for improvement but cannot come close to a good vinyl (for me). Even gave a lecture once at Delft University, Netherlands, on how to improve music reproduction on that medium. That was 1988. Nobody listened. SACD comes closer, still not enough, 192 kHz don't cut it. You cannot buy a free lunch in math when you compress data with a lossy algorithm! Got to loose something somewhere. I hold a patent on a lossless data algorithm, has nothing to do with music, comes from compressing data to send a spacecraft through the planetary system and get some info back that's worth at least the millions spent on the craft.

So, I am trying to convert (do I really want that?) my many quad records to something to keep the enjoyment for many more years to come and let the newer generations share in the excitement. In a paper, I once called a good quad music experience "like having taken LSD without the drug". Although LSD is not around anymore, even the young folks understand what I mean. IMHO, quad was a Zeitgeist phenomenon that was trying to expand our consience, like the drugs, getting to the moon, etc. With the added difference, you can do it at home, still today, and it's not illegal.

Over the years, I have collected equipment and have become a Martin Logan electrostat aficionado with all the associated gear that goes with it. And does a good quad record ever sound good on the big MLs in a big room!! If there is a critical speaker system, it's those big electrostats of theirs. Weeds out the good, the bad and the ugly immediately. They did produce junk in the days of quad as well, not an invention of today. But when they got it right (mainly the audio technician), did it ever sound good.

Enough for today; when I discovered this forum (as if I had never visited search engines before!) today, the day was shot reading and cross-linking all day long. Thanks to you guys for a very special day for me.
Bought a 1/2" 8-track TASCAM recorder on Ebay in the meantime during readings and will go that route for the recordings first. My experience with digitized sound (through a Terratec box from the vinyl) was again a so-so experience. And I could not find the previous quad separation rear-front or LR-RR anymore (somebody stole a few dB's there) when playing back. Maybe I should quitt and just accept lower standards (heck, no!). Bad thing is, I measure a lot because I do not believe the hype anymore we are being told by the commercials.

So, I am waiting to be told "you are all wrong, kid, this is how it works ..".
Thanks,

Arthur
 

winopener

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Hi Arthur,
quite a nice presentation of yourself. It's not that we don't know the world has moved in the last 30 years, here we talk of everything from 4 channel and up, analog and digital, and we do appreciate both worlds.

On the old analog part of things, regarding the matrix systems (SQ QS EV DY) there has been a serious improvement in decoding them via software, to match (and for someone to even surpass) the famed Tate101 or VarioMatrix: if your analog quad sources are on this format it's worth a try. Software needed is Adobe Audition and the scripts that are present in this site.
Regarding CD4, no software decoding is available of today but someone is tinkering with some tools... who knows?
If you're using pre-recorded quad tapes you're in a lucky world, where channel separation isn't limited by the medium (LP do have 35dB max). These are the best sources to use for a trip into the digital world.

Regarding digital medium, DVD-A is a lossless world and currently the only standardized hi-rez format you can author at home; the use of MLP encoding is not mandatory (and it's pricey) but it is a lossless compression algorithm, so if you decide to go the digital way there are good options available. SACD for now is out of the question, there are no home tools to create a sacd disc.

The Terratec box (ews 88 i suppose...) isn't so bad, as always the basic rule is to get the best analog sound to feed the A/D converters: once it's digital you can restore something but it's hard to improve something that started badly.

Greetings from Italy.
 

Q-Eight

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I've wondered.... what if you own some form of the original release (be it Q8, Q4, SQ or QS) and you would like a copy in digital media but don't have the means to make one yourself. Can somebody GIVE you a digital copy legitimately?
 

neil wilkes

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I've wondered.... what if you own some form of the original release (be it Q8, Q4, SQ or QS) and you would like a copy in digital media but don't have the means to make one yourself. Can somebody GIVE you a digital copy legitimately?
Depends on what country you live in, and the interpretation of the laws.
In the UK it is illegal - period. We were actually hit with a "Cease & Desist" from the UK Patents office when we used to offer Vinyl - CD transfers, told that the law says you do not have the perpetual right to the record as perpetuity clauses were banned by consumer groups causing pressure on companies. So it got twisted around.
Their argument goes that when you buy a record, that is what you have bought - the record, not the permanent right to the music which remains the property of the content owners.
However we have also been advised this has never yet been tested in a court - which would be prohibitively expensive as we could not get Legal Aid to fight it, and the labels would price us out in a waiting game.
The way we get around it is to get the client to sign a disclaimer stating they own the record, and they asked us to make the backup for them. Legal? Almost certainly not in the tyranny of the UK's Nanny State where all minor things get a great deal of attention, and the major things get ignored.

In the USA, I believe you have fair usage laws that are supposed to apply here. It depends.
 

jaybird100

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Same thing in the States, but still a bit of a grey area if you want to give a copy to someone. Any CD I want to play in my car gets backed up first, and it's the copy that I listen to while driving. The RIAA is pretty adamant about not passing copies on to other people, citing the royalties lost to the artists (who make more than enough money from the disc), and the record companies, who are lately crying poverty. Actually, there are a number of artists who like the idea of their music getting around, no matter how it's done, and have no problem with this approach. So there really are a lot of ways to look at this issue.
 

ssully

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Depends on what country you live in, and the interpretation of the laws.
In the UK it is illegal - period. We were actually hit with a "Cease & Desist" from the UK Patents office when we used to offer Vinyl - CD transfers, told that the law says you do not have the perpetual right to the record as perpetuity clauses were banned by consumer groups causing pressure on companies. So it got twisted around.
Their argument goes that when you buy a record, that is what you have bought - the record, not the permanent right to the music which remains the property of the content owners.
However we have also been advised this has never yet been tested in a court - which would be prohibitively expensive as we could not get Legal Aid to fight it, and the labels would price us out in a waiting game.
The way we get around it is to get the client to sign a disclaimer stating they own the record, and they asked us to make the backup for them. Legal? Almost certainly not in the tyranny of the UK's Nanny State where all minor things get a great deal of attention, and the major things get ignored.

In the USA, I believe you have fair usage laws that are supposed to apply here. It depends.

Fair use here only applies to copies you make for your own use, from originals that you bought. And the industry hates even that. You aren't allowed to make copies for someone else, whether you give them away, or sell them.

Interestingly, a strict interpretation of the relevant laws here -- which are woefully out of date, compared to the advance of technology -- would seem to allow you to buy a CD, make a digital copy , then sell the original. Both the copying and the selling (of the original) are quite legal. What was not explicitly banned, was keeping the copy after you sell the original. This of course flouts the *intent* of the laws if not the letter, and I doubt it would stand up in court. But it is another indication that the laws are in serious need of clarification.
 

ArmyOfQuad

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Copyright law allows for making backup copies for yourself. Anyone who does backups know the smart way to do them is to keep them off site at a different location. So, making copies and giving them to friends is merely practicing the safe habit of keeping backups at an off site location.

Somehow I don't think that would hold up, but that's my story and I'm sticking to it.
 

Chris Gerhard

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Copyright law allows for making backup copies for yourself. Anyone who does backups know the smart way to do them is to keep them off site at a different location. So, making copies and giving them to friends is merely practicing the safe habit of keeping backups at an off site location.

Somehow I don't think that would hold up, but that's my story and I'm sticking to it.
Wow, in the US you can't defeat digital copy protection to make a copy period. Recording from an analog source and giving away for off site storage might actually be legal, I haven't tried to research that. Certainly making copies of analog outputs or unprotected digital sources is perfectly legal, but somehow I suspect it would need to be maintained by the owner of the recording, not given away. Based on the DMCA there are no provisions for defeating digital copy protection to make a backup.

Recording of the old quadraphonic discs and tapes from the 70's and making a digital surround recording for personal use is perfectly legal and I wish I had some and knew how to do that, but I long ago got rid of my Quad everything from the 70's.

Chris
 

ndiamone

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...Wow, in the US you can't defeat digital copy protection to make a copy period.

Based on the DMCA there are no provisions for defeating digital copy protection to make a backup....

Chris
Except there are dozens of DVD and CD cloning programs from overseas that can be bought legally in in many US electronics stores which not only override the copy-protection (DVD was DeCessed in a matter of months by a Scandanavian kid, and more like him are doing the same for Blu-Ray as we speak) but let you choose which features off the main disc you choose to have on your backup. The newest ones can even make a Branched DVD off a box set where each version is its' own recording. This condenses the films by maintaining all the common scenes between all the versions and then just inserting the different scenes in their different versions where they belong in the picture.

Some people have even home-authored deleted-scene reels and re-incorporated them into the feature when they do backup with
interesting results.

For the car, for example, there would be little need for digital graphics, digital lyric sheets or digital artist bios, thus saving space.

And then there's always the EFF.org taking the place of Legal Aid
standing up for music and movie consumers' rights fighting Big Music
and Big Movies
 

neil wilkes

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And then there's always the EFF.org taking the place of Legal Aid
standing up for music and movie consumers' rights fighting Big Music
and Big Movies
Here we go again.
Without "Big Movies" or "Big Music" there would be NO industry at all.
Just a few hopeless part timers who will never make a living from their music.
Question for you - do you work for free, and if not - why not?
 

JonUrban

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It's a fine line. On one hand, it really ticks me off when I see surround files being shared of new releases like Lightbulb Sun or Ringo 5.1. On the other hand, I would love to use my DVD-Audio collection to make a few custom DVD-A's for use BY ME in my car.

If a label releases a title like Ringo 5.1 against the grain of the industry, but on the next day it's put up for every geek to download for free, then titles like this are not going to get released. Period.

Which is very sad indeed.
 

ArmyOfQuad

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It pisses me off too when I see commercially available dvd-a discs being shared. But, I hardly think that has anything to do with the failure of surround sound or dvd-a. If bootlegging would've resulted in the failing of a format, tape would've never caught on, the most bootlegged format of all time. It has to do with big music not wanting to waste it's time with something that isn't going to catch on in a big way right away. They don't want to deal with the minorities. Just like they aren't interested in the music acts that some people will give a 10 and some will give a 1, they want the act that all will give a 5. Mediocrity sells.
 

atrocity

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It's a fine line. On one hand, it really ticks me off when I see surround files being shared of new releases like Lightbulb Sun or Ringo 5.1. On the other hand, I would love to use my DVD-Audio collection to make a few custom DVD-A's for use BY ME in my car.
And I'd love to know that out of print stuff isn't gone forever or only available to new fans with a million bucks.

In a perfect world, it would be impossible to copy anything still in print and easy to copy anything out of print.

Case in point: I've tried to get legitimate copies of the final studio album credited to the Velvet Underground. It was never released in the USA and has never been put on CD. A few months back I found a torrent containing some well-made MP3 files a fan put together from reasonably clean vinyl. I'd have been perfectly happy to pay for the album, but there was no way that I could. If it ever does get re-issued, I'll buy one. But until then, I refuse to feel like I've done something wrong for obtaining it the way I did.
 
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