How To: Upmix using Penteo and Reaper

[J. PUPSTER]

@HomerJAU - Garry, was just thinking this morning about what would happen if I tried a Penteo Up-mix to an Atmos output. I've always just stuck with 4.0-5.1 mixes; but wanted to know how it would mix stuff in Atmos, maybe put something unexpected in the heights that could be utilized sort of like separating out a stem and mixing back into a 5.1 up-mix.

But, I see that I'm limited to just an 8 channel output (I checked a song out and opened in Audacity and yes, it's only 8 channels.) So is there anyway to get the full Atmos (i.e. heights) output mix or do we need some other special gear, software, to realize that (or maybe even a Windows OS/Sound card limitation?)

Here's a screen shot...

 

[zeerround]

I know you asked Garry, but I have an answer...

You can get more than 8 output channels by typing in a value, say 12, in the Channels drop down in the Reaper Batch Converter.

However, all outputs of Penteo are going to be multichannel wav. NOT Atmos or DTS:X encoded. To use the Atmos outputs from Penteo you would need to first encode with an Atmos encoder (only available on OSX, requires pro-tools, very expensive...) OR have some way of getting more than 8 channels of audio from your output file to your system.

To date you can't do that via HDMI (even though modern HDMI specs say you should).

There is a corner case where you can play 12 channel (7.1.4) files using a special windows player, and windows will Atmos encode it on the fly. However the player and process are clunky. You have to first run a batch program to add the channel assignments to your multi channel wav file, then use (only) the special player.

I can provide a link to the free player, and more instructions if you want to try.

In my case I have an audio interface with 16 channels (Smyth Realiser A16) which can feed my 13 Genelec speakers, and I can play the multichannel wav or wavpak files via foobar2000.

I do have both Atmos and DTS:X encoders (DTS:X is much easier to use, but also only on OSX and expensive) but I only encode for things I want others to listen too, making AVCHDs or BluRays.

 

[J. PUPSTER]

I know you asked Garry, but I have an answer...

You can get more than 8 output channels by typing in a value, say 12, in the Channels drop down in the Reaper Batch Converter.

However, all outputs of Penteo are going to be multichannel wav. NOT Atmos or DTS:X encoded. To use the Atmos outputs from Penteo you would need to first encode with an Atmos encoder (only available on OSX, requires pro-tools, very expensive...) OR have some way of getting more than 8 channels of audio from your output file to your system.

To date you can't do that via HDMI (even though modern HDMI specs say you should).

There is a corner case where you can play 12 channel (7.1.4) files using a special windows player, and windows will Atmos encode it on the fly. However the player and process are clunky. You have to first run a batch program to add the channel assignments to your multi channel wav file, then use (only) the special player.

I can provide a link to the free player, and more instructions if you want to try.

In my case I have an audio interface with 16 channels (Smyth Realiser A16) which can feed my 13 Genelec speakers, and I can play the multichannel wav or wavpak files via foobar2000.

I do have both Atmos and DTS:X encoders (DTS:X is much easier to use, but also only on OSX and expensive) but I only encode for things I want others to listen too, making AVCHDs or BluRays.

Thanks for the info, I think I'll pass on your very generous offer, sounds like more than I'm willing to take on right now. However, specifically as to how these encoders take a typical stereo input and up-mix to the height channels, have you tried that and does any of it do anything interesting with outputting to the upper heights? I figure like most of this stuff I've played with so far, a great deal depends on how the original was recorded to begin with.

 

[zeerround]

I've posted in other threads about upmixing to 7.1.4 or even 7.1.4.4, using a combination of music source separation, crossover filters and stereo to 5.1 upmixing.

Using music source separation, I've found putting the drums in the height speakers is nice, and perhaps putting upmixed rear vocals in the rear heights as well. I "stereoize" the bass, with a crossover filter, and put it in the side speakers, with the 5.1 upmix going in the 5.1 channels.

I mention all that because I've found it better than just trying to extend the concept of upmixing from 5.1 to 7.1.4 and beyond.

 

[HomerJAU]

Thanks Glenn. You are the forum expert on > 5.1 upmixing, great you posted.

I do 4.1 upmixes, occasional 5.1. I tried a couple of 7.1 upmixes but never really did much test listening.

I recently bought a Mac Mini (for programming a macOS version of MMH). Your post just reminded me I can now run a DTS:X or Atmos encoder on it too. I may give that a go at some stage. But I think you are right. I’d need to start using source separation techniques to get better mixes into heights and rears.

 

[junh1024]

I was thinking of trying to get the old Protools rig running so I could run the old mix sans missing overdub tracks. Then null the difference out and at least have a stereo mix of the isolated overdubs. Or someone could just shoot me now!

You reverse polarity on most DAWs. What DAW & equipment do you have now?

...what would happen if I tried a Penteo Up-mix to an Atmos output. I've always just stuck with 4.0-5.1 mixes; but wanted to know how it would mix stuff in Atmos, maybe put something unexpected in the heights that could be utilized sort of like separating out a stem and mixing back into a 5.1 up-mix.

Using music source separation, I've found putting the drums in the height speakers is nice, and perhaps putting upmixed rear vocals in the rear heights as well. I "stereoize" the bass, with a crossover filter, and put it in the side speakers

I mention all that because I've found it better than just trying to extend the concept of upmixing from 5.1 to 7.1.4 and beyond.

I would agree with Zee that (ML) stem separation (like spleeter) be used to make the upscale sound more discrete, and would work well with 51 upscales too. So you can make it sound potentially a lot better than a straight upscale or DSU. You can also add dynamic panning for extra magic.

ED: A little drums at height is "ok", but I wouldn't recommend stereoizing the bass since bass is meant to be front/center& stable, and moving it back can make it unstable.

 

[timbre4]

See my edited post. The original issue is with latest Penteo (Install January Penteo to resolve). I don’t know why my fingers typed Reaper. I sent Mark the Jan Penteo installer.
I always batch convert and I’ve found keeping the Penteo input levels as zero gives very similar volume levels to original stereo. If volume needs increasing due to a quiet stereo version I increase gain of my Izotope Ozone plugin.
I always apply Replay Gain to the MCH files as the final step in my process.

If I'm reading this correctly, the Penteo install I downloaded to ILOK key a week ago is not going to output as much channel-wise as the January version? Since I can't do a deep dive into PENTEO right this minute, I wonder if I should just wait for a newer install where the issue is fixed?

NOOB Dept.: What does Replay Gain do for me?

 

[HomerJAU]

I will contact Penteo about the issue and they should get a fix out soon. I hope.

For most users here there’s nothing really new in latest version (apart from the bug!). If you want the previous version Tim I can PM you a link to the January installer.It overwrites the latest version you installed.

ReplayGain is a method used to normalise volume between track and albums in a non destructive way. It measures average/peak volume or each track and applies a volume gain value (+ or -) as tags to each file. It doesn’t actually alter the audio data (destructive as you can’t go back), it’s just metadata.

When played through supported players (Foobar, JRiver, Kodi etc) the player reads the ReplayGain tags and adjusts the playback gain to raise or lower each file‘s volume at playback, therefore ‘level matching’ between albums/tracks so you are not forever having to manually adjust your system volume control between albums/tracks.

https://www.quadraphonicquad.com/forums/threads/who-uses-replaygain-when-playing-music.24271/

 

[timbre4]

Thanks - it’ll be next weekend so I can wait’n’see on the PENTEO version.

Is Reaper the only game in town? I had a trial version that came with a Peavey USB mixer. Wasn’t that keen on it but didn’t really monkey with it as I had Sound Forge as old reliable for recording.

I have saved various presets in Sound Forge to normalize files and save them that way. Interesting concept to code them instead for FLAC playback. This might become an issue once I start auditioning these FLAC HDDs I’ve been building up. These are just being plugged into USB ports on OPPO players so I reckon I don’t have a front end to recognize the Replay Gain data.

 

[HomerJAU]

I think Jon said he could use Penteo in SoundForge. Maybe check with him?

 

[timbre4]

I think Jon said he could use Penteo in SoundForge. Maybe check with him?

Thanks I opened ACID first and it didn't seem right. Sound Forge does have a Batch processing feature; if it includes VST3 I'm probably good. My favorite SF is version 10 so I'll likely have to install a newer version. I'll see what Jon's got.

 

[jimfisheye]

I'm really tempted to try this... The iLok experience from way back was not good. (Probably why it was retired? Or... mostly retired apparently.)

I wouldn't be expecting transparent results just at the push of a button of course. How much control do you have over separation with this? Is there a spectral view to select audio elements?

Anyone have comments like "You can usually get away with a, b, & c but not x, y, & z"?

I looked at the Specweb download. It says Windows only. It looked like a command line install at a glance but... nope. Tried to launch it in my old 10.6.8 system that had Wine installed. Nope again.

 

[jimfisheye]

You reverse polarity on most DAWs. What DAW & equipment do you have now?

Reaper. I upgraded from Protools HD to Reaper over 10 years ago.

I would need the rest of the mix to match the original perfectly for a null to result in the missing elements perfectly isolated. Older plugins and some that retired. There's automation all over the place. I translated the session to Reaper with AA_Translator but it doesn't have the ability to translate the plugin instances or the automation beyond the basic track volume/pan/mute envelopes.

There's one more alternate backup on a stack of DVDs I have to go through but I'm not hopeful to find those overdubs. Protools had this trick of resetting to default file paths and some files got recorded to the desktop. That file path is saved in the old PT session file and it's staring me right in the face. It's still operator error of course! This is called learning robust backup procedures the hard way.

I think I have the best chance of getting an isolated null of those lost tracks by dragging the old Protools system out.

So between screw ups like that and the fact a lot of the basic tracks (full drums, guitar/synth/etc, loops, vox) went down live to two-track, I probably need to come to terms with this one remaining in stereo. Even though all the layers and madness scream for surround.

What will Jim screw up next?
Tune in next week!

 

[zeerround]

Thanks - it’ll be next weekend so I can wait’n’see on the PENTEO version.

Is Reaper the only game in town? I had a trial version that came with a Peavey USB mixer. Wasn’t that keen on it but didn’t really monkey with it as I had Sound Forge as old reliable for recording.

I have saved various presets in Sound Forge to normalize files and save them that way. Interesting concept to code them instead for FLAC playback. This might become an issue once I start auditioning these FLAC HDDs I’ve been building up. These are just being plugged into USB ports on OPPO players so I reckon I don’t have a front end to recognize the Replay Gain data.

Plogue Bidule is always a choice, if you already have it. If you do, I can make you a layout.

 

[timbre4]

Plogue Bidule is always a choice, if you already have it. If you do, I can make you a layout.

Really? I thought I did but it's no longer on this machine since the shift to SPECweb activity.

 

[zeerround]

Yeah really, but it's not going to be a bunch of files all at once. That's why folks like Reaper batch.

 

[timbre4]

Yeah really, but it's not going to be a bunch of files all at once. That's why folks like Reaper batch.

I am used to track-at-a-time workflow for SPECweb but looking to see if the Sound Forge v12 (VST support) can use it's batch process first. If not, I'll circle back on this. THX

 

[J. PUPSTER]

I rarely use batch processing in Penteo/Reaper, most of my time is spent post Penteo up-mix fine tuning each individual song in Audacity and RX-8. I feel each song is its own unique entity and requires special attention to get the best results. I just wish Penteo had more control over what it does during the up-mix process; sort of a combo with RX-8 Music Rebalance and its quasi-stem output.
My biggest pet peeve is that Penteo will typically push cymbals into the rears and the occasional hi-hat or snare drum on wide recordings. Haven't figured out how to get the the drum kit to stay "all" in the fronts. If someone knows how to do that; I'd love to know, because once they're pushed into the rears, they seem hard to mitigate (you know how many cymbal hits are in songs yeah?)

 

[Mark Anderson]

There’s a bug in latest version of Reaper Penteo just released.
The new version does not allow selection of > 4 channel output. So I deleted it as I always do 4.1 upmixes using 5.1 setting and turning Centre off. That was a added ‘feature’ to correct channel order in a release in January (I think)

I installed the the January 2021 Penteo version V221 and can now use different channel layouts in the Batch processing but when I select 4.1 the right rear speaker has no sound. The meter shows sound but nada. If i switch to 5.1 and I get sound out of all the correct channels so assume I should just turn down the center channel to mix to 4.1.
Another bug I found with this version and the newest V224 is if you select 4.0 I only get left front, center and right front.
I have sent an email to [email protected] and hope they can correct these issues.

 

[Mark Anderson]

Below is what I sent to report the problem with Penteo
-----------------------------------------------------------
I have really enjoyed using Penteo to up-mix some projects but ran into some problems I would like to report
When installed in Reaper V224 will not allow you to pick all the channel assignments available when using the batch processing in Reaper

When using Penteo outside of the batch processor in Reaper, I get some of the other channel assignments but nothing beyond 6.0

I installed version 221 from January and now can get all the channel assignments including Atmos and Auro 3D but have found some other bugs. When I select a 4.0 layout I only get Left front, center, Right front (This issue also appears in V224). When I select 4.1 the right rear speaker has no sound. The meter shows sound but nothing can be heard. If i switch to 5.1 and I get sound out of all the correct channels.

This is the channel layout I have selected in Penteo

Thanks for your wonderful product, I hope these issues can be addressed
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Here is the response I received

Hello I am happy you are using Penteo for batch (guessing CD) conversion…do you have a name so I know who I am conversing with?
I don’t believe there is an issue in Penteo – with the latest Reaper release changes how it handles output channels. You have your output set to 6 so there Reaper limits Penteo to 6.
Please be sure you have your output channels manually set to the output you desire in Reaper. Once you do that, the Penteo outputs will show up in Reaper. See attached image of a 4 to 16 channel change
Please let me know.
Sophia