How To: Upmix using Penteo and Reaper

[HomerJAU]

So they deny the issue but tell you something changed.

My Penteo is set for 6 channels out but I can’t select 5.1 in Penteo in latest version.

 

[HomerJAU]

Mark, send them your first couple of screen grabs showing Reaper set to 6 channels and Penteo not showing 4.1 or 5.1

 

[HomerJAU]

I installed the the January 2021 Penteo version V221 and can now use different channel layouts in the Batch processing but when I select 4.1 the right rear speaker has no sound. The meter shows sound but nada. If i switch to 5.1 and I get sound out of all the correct channels so assume I should just turn down the center channel to mix to 4.1.

Yes.Penteo added a new 4,1 method a while back to fix the incorrect channel layout for their 4.1 mix. The new version won’t fix their 4,1 mix as they deny the issue.

To do a 4.1 upmix. Select 5.1 mix and turn off the Centre channel. All centre info is then mixed to LF and RF.

Or use the Penteo tool in MMH I created to batch fix Penteo 4.1 mixes (using their 4.1 output setting with incorrect channel order)

 

[HomerJAU]

I rarely use batch processing in Penteo/Reaper, most of my time is spent post Penteo up-mix fine tuning each individual song in Audacity and RX-8. I feel each song is its own unique entity and requires special attention to get the best results. I just wish Penteo had more control over what it does during the up-mix process; sort of a combo with RX-8 Music Rebalance and its quasi-stem output.

My problem with Rebalance and stem extraction tools is it never sounds perfect. I can’t destroy a perfectly engineered stereo master by extracting/inserting distorted stems. These stem tools are getting better with each release though, I check them out once a year. Maybe next versions will be ok...

I think Penteo does a great job with most albums. Good enough not to worry about spending an hour on each track to tweak a poofteenth more. I’m probably only going to listen to each song a few times over next 10 years, I don’t want to spend more time creating than actually listening. The result is not worth the effort IMO. It’s an upmix, never going to be as good as the best multitrack mix, but a quick batch upmix will (almost always) sound much better than the original stereo version.

 

[Mark Anderson]

Mark, send them your first couple of screen grabs showing Reaper set to 6 channels and Penteo not showing 4.1 or 5.1

I have sent them another email detailing the problem. The 1st response included a picture that had an icon that I do not see in either version (v224 or v221)

I use a 55" LG OLED for mixing and have noticed some things not displaying right so who knows

batch processing with v224

batch processing with v221

No way for me to scroll down on the image above to find the icon even if it is not needed in this case

 

[HomerJAU]

The channel mapping gets done automatically 'under the hood' when in batch mode.

The problem is Penteo does not allow us to select the number of upmix output channels. Here are two screen grabs of Penteo after started in Reaper Batch mode with Reaper set to 6 channel output:

Old January Penteo 2.21:

Latest (new Penteo) 2.24:

Whatever changed does not work as they think. Why can't we see > 4 channels as output options in Penteo when Reaper is set to 6 channel output:

 

[Mark Anderson]

Thanks Gary, I sent them all the same screen shots, we will see where it goes, I'll keep you informed

 

[junh1024]

Is Reaper the only game in town? I had a trial version that came with a Peavey USB mixer.

Theoretically, You can use any DAW that supports surround. The "Peavy trial" is the same trial as from the website. I trialled RPR for a few years before I bought it. A few years should be good enough.

Reaper. I upgraded from Protools HD to Reaper over 10 years ago.

Good man

I wouldn't be expecting transparent results just at the push of a button of course. How much control do you have over separation with this? Is there a spectral view to select audio elements?

No, which is why people here have been using ML separation software like Izotope RX8, below.

I rarely use batch processing in Penteo/Reaper, most of my time is spent post Penteo up-mix fine tuning each individual song in Audacity and RX-8. I feel each song is its own unique entity and requires special attention to get the best results. I just wish Penteo had more control over what it does during the up-mix process; sort of a combo with RX-8 Music Rebalance and its quasi-stem output.
My biggest pet peeve is that Penteo will typically push cymbals into the rears and the occasional hi-hat or snare drum on wide recordings. Haven't figured out how to get the the drum kit to stay "all" in the fronts. If someone knows how to do that; I'd love to know, because once they're pushed into the rears, they seem hard to mitigate (you know how many cymbal hits are in songs yeah?)

If you're pre-widening before upscaling, remove that. Otherwise, you can use EQ to turn down the HFs in the rears, and then the opposite adjustment @ front. Use a linear EQ like ReaFIR if you wish. The moment you add additional FX, the upscale will no longer be unity, but it could offer a better listening experience.

My problem with Rebalance and stem extraction tools is it never sounds perfect. I can’t destroy a perfectly engineered stereo master by extracting/inserting distorted stems. These stem tools are getting better with each release though, I check them out once a year. Maybe next versions will be ok...

I think Penteo does a great job with most albums. Good enough not to worry about spending an hour on each track to tweak a poofteenth more. I’m probably only going to listen to each song a few times over next 10 years, I don’t want to spend more time creating than actually listening. The result is not worth the effort IMO. It’s an upmix, never going to be as good as the best multitrack mix, but a quick batch upmix will (almost always) sound much better than the original stereo version.

If you use a dedicated upscaler like Penteo, there's always gonna be compromises like the drum position, as said above. With ML separation, there isn't, since you already have them out.

I would say if you're not gonna listen to the album many times, maybe just let DSU do its job. Rather than upscale hundreds of albums, mb focus on a few of your favorite albums, and use ML separation to make a really good upscale.

I have sent them another email detailing the problem. The 1st response included a picture that had an icon that I do not see in either version (v224 or v221)

Have you tried upgrading your RPR?

 

[HomerJAU]

I would say if you're not gonna listen to the album many times, maybe just let DSU do its job. Rather than upscale hundreds of albums, mb focus on a few of your favorite albums, and use ML separation to make a really good upscale.

I have multiple surround systems so playing from pre-upmixed files that have been saved with with replay gain, volume tweaks and pre applied image widening is better for me. I can play any mix of files without having to engage/disengage AVR DSU upmixing between stereo and surround. They can play all surround files. I also prefer quad (actually 4.1) upmixes over 5.1.

I don’t listen to any stereo. Everything worth listening to is upmixed prior to going on my NAS.

There’s also quite a bit of satisfaction knowing I did the upmix. I do individual Penteo and Izotope Ozone Imager settings per album, and adjust between tracks. Its not a one setting for every song and every album done blindly.

With DSU I’d feel the need to tweak between tracks and not just sit back and enjoy the music, which is what I like to do. Although I occasionally make notes that specific tracks/albums need an adjustment, which I do next time I’m doing an upmix session on my PC.

 

[zeerround]

By the way, the Penteo in Reaper problem seems to be just that combination. The same versions of Penteo that aren't letting you go past 4 channels in Reaper work correctly in Plogue Bidule.

 

[Mark Anderson]

Came home tonight and thought I would us batch to upmix but after a half hour no go. Works great outside of batch. Think I need to find another program than reaper.

 

[HomerJAU]

Or use the Jan 2021 version of Penteo and wait for a fix by Penteo.

BTW: I emailed Penteo support a couple days ago but no reply as yet.

 

[Mark Anderson]

Thanks Gary, you have inspired me to go this path and enjoying every step. Had a friend pass away today and was hoping a quick upmix before dinner with the family would be of help. Aaah well, these are the labors we go thru to learn our hobby. I do have the January Penteo loaded and the 229 of reaper but it just could be my 8 year old workstation and modern software. I discovered today that I could stretch the channel assignment window that I had not discovered before but still could not find the plus button to aid in channel assignments that I can see outside of batch.
It appears as you mentioned about batch not seeing the channel assignments and I think that is the problem I am running into today.
This weekend I just half some time to give it another go. Has anyone heard from Jon in regards to SF compatibility?

 

[HomerJAU]

Sorry to hear you lost a friend Mark.

The batch upmix does an auto channel map.

 

[HomerJAU]

Has anyone heard from Jon in regards to SF compatibility?

I haven’t noticed Jon on QQ for a while. (Our time zones are almost opposite mind you). I hope all is ok.

I found Jon’s SoundForge with Penteo post here:

https://www.quadraphonicquad.com/forums/threads/penteo-16-on-sound-forge-14-works.28459/

 

[M-K]

There’s a bug in latest version of Reaper Penteo just released. I will upload the previous version and PM you a link.

The new version does not allow selection of > 4 channel output. So I deleted it as I always do 4.1 upmixes using 5.1 setting and turning Centre off. That was a added ‘feature’ to correct channel order in a release in January (I think)

EDIT: I meant Penteo, not sure where my brain was when I typed Reaper

That's the reason why I keep always the last working version when updating. I'll have a look soon how this looks like in nuendo with le latest penteo.

 

[M-K]

...
However, all outputs of Penteo are going to be multichannel wav. NOT Atmos or DTS:X encoded. To use the Atmos outputs from Penteo you would need to first encode with an Atmos encoder (only available on OSX, requires pro-tools, very expensive...) OR have some way of getting more than 8 channels of audio from your output file to your system.
...

The latest Steinberg Nuendo has a native Atmos encoder included. Because this DAW software is very expensive and I have no Atmos equipment I did not update yet. Nuendo is available for WIN10 and MAC. Atmos encoding does not require an external hardware to encode.

The use of an hardware encoder I've seen in a video on y-tube that showed how the mix of "Kraftwerk 3D -The Catalogue" was done in Atmos.
(...hope I remember this right...)

 

[Mark Anderson]

I came home early today and gave batch another whirl. Interesting that when I fire it up it defaults to atmos 9.1.6 and running batch I could see the meters moving, set it to 5.1 and nothing. Same problem I had yesterday. For some reason today it worked after fighting with it for a while. So I have one batch done and am now fearful of shutting down the program.
I saw Jon's post on SF and note that is not a viable alternative. Also noticed that Gary mentioned that he did not receive a response to his second email to Penteo, I have not had one either. I'll just keeping on chugging while I can.

 

[timbre4]

Kind of inertia mode for me; Sound Forge disappointment, some Reaper reluctance. Plenty else to do on other fronts for now, this will fall into place eventually.

 

[HomerJAU]

A new version of Reaper released. This has same issue as previous versions with latest Penteo 224. 224 still does not show > 4 channels in its upmix selection.

Penteo never responded to my email where I provided a description and screen grabs.