Involve encoding....best practices?

[Electric Moo]

Asking if anyone else has been encoding multitrack music using Involve, maybe we can have a thread discussing successful techniques?

fwiw I am using Reaper, with the "reasurround" plugin to control different elements. The newer version of reaper has a "reasurroundpan" which apparently works better for actual panning, vs static placement.

I am finding with stereo sourced material, I am losing my right rear audio once encoded. Also some elements disappear completely: is it common to flip LR polarity prior to encoding, to combat this?

*edit* suspecting mono sourced tracks don't have this problem?

I have done some searching here but not found any " how to encode into QS" threads, which is probably the most applicable reference material (?)

I will also prep some audio files, as samples, if that helps

Thanks!

 

[Electric Moo]

To clarify: I have about 8-20 stereo tracks in a project, each track with a quad panning control that feeds a discrete 4 channel master output. Which is then fed into the 4ch-->2ch Involve encoder

 

[kfbkfb]

https://quark.cykik.com/faq/^^^
Mono compatibility?


(may be helpful as to explaining limitations in QS matrix encoding)


Kirk Bayne

 

[Electric Moo]

That is a very good point. I should be previewing in mono.

" Huh? You mean it's more complicated than making a discreet 4ch mix, and then hitting a button? " Lol

Thanks!

 

[Electric Moo]

This thread ( post #14) contains test tones for the Involve decoder

https://www.quadraphonicquad.com/forums/threads/smart-involve-encode-test-tones.28963/
It's probably wise to run that through your playback system to calibrate/verify everything works

 

[Sonik Wiz]

This thread ( post #14) contains test tones for the Involve decoder

https://www.quadraphonicquad.com/forums/threads/smart-involve-encode-test-tones.28963/
It's probably wise to run that through your playback system to calibrate/verify everything works

It looks like you're having a pretty good conversation with yourself....
QQ member Bill Brent had an excellent podcast that featured surround music. He would take discrete 4ch R2R or CD-4 records & encode them to QS. At first he did this on a PC & after he got an Involve encoder it did it that way. He was now stuck with encoding in real time (the PC was faster) but he had much less conversion labor to do. For the most part it was as simple as hitting a button & walk away. He had many excellent collections & themes for his programs.

Bill's podcast went away some time ago and he hasn't posted in just as long but he still hangs around as I see he was here on thus year Aug 10th. I suggest drop him a PM for some 1st hand experiance.

 

[Electric Moo]

Heh, well I figured I'd document it, might be good reference for anybody else

I think a logical workflow is to feed the DAW-->encoder-->SM-->monitors, and hopefully you can adjust things in the DAW near realtime.

I believe my current rear speakers/amp have issues: would explain some of the funkiness going on. Waiting on a replacement

 

[MidiMagic]

That is a very good point. I should be previewing in mono.

" Huh? You mean it's more complicated than making a discreet 4ch mix, and then hitting a button? " Lol

Thanks!

Just how discreet (sic) are those sources. Do they keep secrets?

For mono compatibility, you do not want to pan any primary source to center back in either QS or SQ.

If a discrete source has content at center back, it will disappear in mono playback of any QS or SQ encoding. This is because the encoder produces signals 180 degrees apart in the two encoded signals, equivalent to a vertical stylus motion on a record. A mono pickup or a mono signal mixed from stereo throws away this signal.

So check that discrete source before encoding it. If there is a primary part at center back, it will be diminished or disappear in your encoded music.

When I mix, I like to put some reverb in center back, so the reverb is greater in stereo or surround than it is in mono.

 

[jaybird100]

Heh, well I figured I'd document it, might be good reference for anybody else

I think a logical workflow is to feed the DAW-->encoder-->SM-->monitors, and hopefully you can adjust things in the DAW near realtime.

I believe my current rear speakers/amp have issues: would explain some of the funkiness going on. Waiting on a replacement

I'm also using the Involve encoder, working from SACD and DVD-A sources. My Pioneer SACD/DAV-A player's multichannel outputs connect directly to the encoder's inputs. The output goes to my Sony CD recorder. The CD recorder feeds the SM. The encoder is set to the "Smart encode" mode. My results? If you didn't know better, you'd swear it was discrete. The discs are for my own use, mainly for play in the car. The encoding creates a wider stereo image which, in a smaller car, sounds excellent.

 

[Electric Moo]

Thanks guys! Useful info for sure

I have a mix of stereo & mono tracks, will have to experiment with panning etc

Jaybird, how do you decode into quad in your car? Does your car have prologic 2?

 

[kfbkfb]

A car stereo can be rewired to provide DynaQuad decoding.

I'm considering switching around the speaker wires in my car stereo to provide DynaQuad rather than the factory dual stereo configuration.

Note: DynaQuad (either passive speaker matrix or active line level) will (sort of) decode QS (I tried the Vector 4 QS demo LP with my DynaQuad setup, the sound does pan from CB to [almost] CF [I'm not using matched speakers]).


Kirk Bayne

 

[jaybird100]

Thanks guys! Useful info for sure

I have a mix of stereo & mono tracks, will have to experiment with panning etc

Jaybird, how do you decode into quad in your car? Does your car have prologic 2?

I don't decode it. The QS matrix creates a widened soundfield when played without decoding. It sounds great in the car. I wish I could find a good car system with PL II that would fit in my car!

 

[MidiMagic]

I just thought of a possibility: connect a new back speaker to the hot leads pof the two rear speakers.

I once connected the high resistance side of an L-pad to the return (ground) wires of the rear speakers. It worked, but I had to connect an inductor in parallel with the L-pad to get any bass. It worked, but I didn't have the car long.

 

[par4ken]

A car stereo can be rewired to provide DynaQuad decoding.

I'm considering switching around the speaker wires in my car stereo to provide DynaQuad rather than the factory dual stereo configuration.

Note: DynaQuad (either passive speaker matrix or active line level) will (sort of) decode QS (I tried the Vector 4 QS demo LP with my DynaQuad setup, the sound does pan from CB to [almost] CF [I'm not using matched speakers]).


Kirk Bayne

They used to sell DynaQuad type adaptors for car use. I had one in the seventies but the problem is (or was at least) that you wanted the bass to come from the rear. The big old cars almost always had 6x9's mounted on the rear deck. The stereo effect and bass was always very good that way, so you lost all that with a DynaQuad setup.
I have a Roctron Circle Surround decoder that works very nice in the car. It was designed not to destroy the bass from the rear channels and retains left to right separation across the rear.

 

[Electric Moo]

One thing I am finding challenging encoding to Involve/QS is getting good bass into the rear channels. Like kick drum, bass lines etc

I find it disappears when you pan it to the rears, and just end up leaving it mostly or 100% on the front LR channels

Any tricks for this?

Thx!

 

[kfbkfb]

The standard Sansui QS matrix encoding process doesn't reduce bass in any of the channels, maybe try encoding a frequency sweep in LB and RB and checking if the QS encode/decode equipment is working properly.

A subwoofer test that could be useful for checking LB and RB bass encoding/decoding:
https://www.quadraphonicquad.com/fo...tatic-speaker-teaser.30891/page-2#post-579090

Kirk Bayne

 

[Electric Moo]

Hey, thanks for the link! Will give it a shot

I'm wondering if the mono signal is cancelling itself out as I pan it back. Was going to try duping the signal & inverting it, for each rear channel

 

[jaybird100]

One thing I am finding challenging encoding to Involve/QS is getting good bass into the rear channels. Like kick drum, bass lines etc

I find it disappears when you pan it to the rears, and just end up leaving it mostly or 100% on the front LR channels

Any tricks for this?

Thx!

As a user of the Involve encoder, I haven't encountered that problem.

 

[MidiMagic]

One thing I am finding challenging encoding to Involve/QS is getting good bass into the rear channels. Like kick drum, bass lines etc

I find it disappears when you pan it to the rears, and just end up leaving it mostly or 100% on the front LR channels

Any tricks for this?

Thx!

There is a reason.

LPs have the deep bass panned to center (CF) for two reasons:
- The record groove could take more bass in the lateral (= CF) direction than it could in other directions.
- The L and R (or LF and RF) speakers together reproducing a center (CF) bass signal work in concert to produce a louder bass than can be had from one speaker.

Whenever I make a mix, I put the drumkit, the bass guitar, and the lead vocal in CF.

Unfortunately, the speakers are not working in concert for other directions in either SQ or QS. There are phase differences between other pairs of speakers that are normally inaudible, but show up when you try to use speaker pairs to reinforce bass.

Part of this is that cheaper decoders do not have total phase accuracy at the very lowest frequency.

If you have a subwoofer, it is looking to center front for the signal. If you have two subwoofers (connected to L and R), they are out of phase with each other for any pan direction for the bass except center front.

 

[Electric Moo]

That makes a lot of sense, thanks!