INVOLVE SQ - IS COMING

[bmoura]

Any idea from the company president when the full QS/SQ/Involve version will be available? I just saw this product by accident - saw a link to their review on audaud web site when I was actually reading their review of a phono preamp!! and saw the vectorscope screenshot comparing to QSD-1 then had to google Involve Audio, then read JonUrban's write-up and now I'm here!

I have a restored (twice) Sansui QRX-9001, the 1st time by that same "someone" I think Jon referred to in his post which didn't last long. The 2nd restoration did the trick and Sansui is still trouble-free. Plus I have a Audionics Space & Image Composer with Tate II chips and it's working fine. BUT when the day comes that the Sansui needs work (and that day will come eventually, controls don't stay de-oxited forever) I will not pay another $1000-1200 to restore it again. And on the rare occasions a QSD-1 does appear on Ebay, there's a bidding war & crazy money.

So the Surround Master looks like the ideal product for us old (and new) quaddies with extensive quad LP collections. My own experience is that Dolby PLIIx Music pales in comparison to QS & Tate SQ in generating near-discrete surround from 2 ch's. So that parallels the reviews I've found of the Surround Master since it "seems" to be close or better than QS matrix.

I read the thread comparing QSD-1 results to SM results. If the Involve matrix is that close to QS in results and can accurately decode QS, what will the QS edition add over the Involve/SQ version? Or is there differences between straight QS decoding and Involve matrix?? Maybe I missed something in skimming that thread.

I hope "chucky" sees my post soon and can help because I'm eager to buy one but if the QS/SQ version is just around the corner, I'd like to wait and get the full version.

It's a shame Audioholics gave it a great review but also gave it a "mildly interesting". But that's not too surprising since they are focused on home theater & 2ch audio. The reviewer did mention appeal to quadraphonic fans.

I wish Involve Audio success beyond us quadraphiles and hope the company does well enough to stay around awhile. This looks like an ideal product for those with 40 yr old quad gear that's limping along. as some of you may know, I'm the original owner of my Sansui 9001 from 1979.

I've been absent from this forum for quite awhile, although I have been checking on 5.1 music but nothing on hardware or surround in general. Glad this product got me back here again

The Surround Master with QS and SQ decoding is available. It's called the Surround Master SQ Edition and it sells for $499 - a $100 premium over the original non-SQ version.
http://www.involveaudio.com/products/surround-master-sq-edition

What is still pending, from what I know, is the Surround Master encoder which allows you to take discrete multichannel material and matrix encode it.

If you need an excellent matrix decoder, I think the Surround Master is a deal. Recommended here.

 

[ss9001]

I know you (like me) are a long time quadraphile, so you & Jon's recommendations I take seriously I shot an query to the company but does it ship from Australia?

OK - so the SQ version IS also the QS version as well? encoder version too may have some nice uses since many discrete movie mixes are pretty disappointing in surround content, timid audio engineers or studios who only think to bleed some music "back there". We're watching the whole set of Fringe BD's and you might as well not have 5.1. Many times, I have found much more satisfying results from adding PLIIx to standard 2 ch Dolby Stereo mix's like on the Farscape and Firefly DVD's. just because it's discrete doesn't mean it's good discrete that makes optimum use of surrounds & rears. I have quite a few ambient mix SACD's, jazz, classical & vocals, but rock & prog-rock should be wide-open use of surround

so maybe the encoder version is one to wait for but mostly my interest in it is obviously as Sansui/Tate replacement or at least an option IF that gear decides it wants restored again I can see this $500 device dropping some of the bidding war values of mint condition, restored QRX's, QSD-1's and Tates on Ebay that's both good news and bad at the same time

 

[bmoura]

I know you (like me) are a long time quadraphile, so you & Jon's recommendations I take seriously I shot an query to the company but does it ship from Australia?

OK - so the SQ version IS also the QS version as well? encoder version too may have some nice uses since many discrete movie mixes are pretty disappointing in surround content, timid audio engineers or studios who only think to bleed some music "back there". We're watching the whole set of Fringe BD's and you might as well not have 5.1. Many times, I have found much more satisfying results from adding PLIIx to standard 2 ch Dolby Stereo mix's like on the Farscape and Firefly DVD's. just because it's discrete doesn't mean it's good discrete that makes optimum use of surrounds & rears. I have quite a few ambient mix SACD's, jazz, classical & vocals, but rock & prog-rock should be wide-open use of surround

so maybe the encoder version is one to wait for but mostly my interest in it is obviously as Sansui/Tate replacement or at least an option IF that gear decides it wants restored again I can see this $500 device dropping some of the bidding war values of mint condition, restored QRX's, QSD-1's and Tates on Ebay that's both good news and bad at the same time

Yes the SQ version also has QS decoding as well. For SQ and QS matrix decoding the Surround Master is very effective. And it's also a winner for Stereo to Quad synthesis. I found that it was money well spent. I use it here more for Stereo to Surround enhancement more than anything.

 

[bigbillquad]

Hi ss9001,
I have a TATE 101A & a QSD-2 and now I have a Surround Master and in my opinion It is as good if not better than these vintage boxes , what I like is you have all the decoding of( QS – SQ – 5.1 & Stereo Synthesis ) all in one little box I highly recommend the SM.

I know you (like me) are a long time quadraphile, so you & Jon's recommendations I take seriously I shot an query to the company but does it ship from Australia?

OK - so the SQ version IS also the QS version as well? encoder version too may have some nice uses since many discrete movie mixes are pretty disappointing in surround content, timid audio engineers or studios who only think to bleed some music "back there". We're watching the whole set of Fringe BD's and you might as well not have 5.1. Many times, I have found much more satisfying results from adding PLIIx to standard 2 ch Dolby Stereo mix's like on the Farscape and Firefly DVD's. just because it's discrete doesn't mean it's good discrete that makes optimum use of surrounds & rears. I have quite a few ambient mix SACD's, jazz, classical & vocals, but rock & prog-rock should be wide-open use of surround

so maybe the encoder version is one to wait for but mostly my interest in it is obviously as Sansui/Tate replacement or at least an option IF that gear decides it wants restored again I can see this $500 device dropping some of the bidding war values of mint condition, restored QRX's, QSD-1's and Tates on Ebay that's both good news and bad at the same time

 

[rustyandi]

also that price is in Aus.dollars
so US buyers pay about 10pc less

 

[ss9001]

thanks, guys for the info. I read several posts by the president and someone else at the company that their sales haven't been what they expected or hoped for. in this regard, I want to make sure the company or product isn't on its way out before I send in paypal money. it wouldn't be the 1st time a company on the verge of closing down accepted money for orders that it wasn't going to fill. 1 post I read several months ago said they had only sold about 20 SQ units. for such a niche product to a niche market, I'm not sure what they expected.

I really want to support this company and buy this product soon. what's the status of their business in 2014? has anyone recently bought one (not early 2013) and what were they like to deal with? was it a smooth transaction and quick delivery?

forgive me for being cautious but we know people on this forum who've been hung out to dry in business dealings with a certain "someone" who used to be a good forum member but ended up screwing some folks.

I'm hoping my query to the company gets answered soon and I'll be ordering one. just want some indication the company is still in good shape and viable.

 

[bigbillquad]

thanks, guys for the info. I read several posts by the president and someone else at the company that their sales haven't been what they expected or hoped for. in this regard, I want to make sure the company or product isn't on its way out before I send in paypal money. it wouldn't be the 1st time a company on the verge of closing down accepted money for orders that it wasn't going to fill. 1 post I read several months ago said they had only sold about 20 SQ units. for such a niche product to a niche market, I'm not sure what they expected.

I really want to support this company and buy this product soon. what's the status of their business in 2014? has anyone recently bought one (not early 2013) and what were they like to deal with? was it a smooth transaction and quick delivery?

forgive me for being cautious but we know people on this forum who've been hung out to dry in business dealings with a certain "someone" who used to be a good forum member but ended up screwing some folks.

I'm hoping my query to the company gets answered soon and I'll be ordering one. just want some indication the company is still in good shape and viable.

Hi. ss9001
I see were coming from but the SQ Surround Master is not there core business it was developed as a project for QQ members Or though it is available for the general public as well.

 

[chucky3042]

Hi ss9001

Thank you for your questions, I have been caught up in heaps of design work with "Overture" all week and have not had time to check up on QQ and read your questions- things have been a bit quiet on the forum recently!

The answers provided by all the QQ members are correct- I feel redundant.

In regards to our processing some aspects are handled using analogue circuitry such as the phase shift networks but the bulk of the processing is handled by the two DSP's. The processor operates at 135 Mhz with a 48 bit data path enabling 5 simultaneous operations per data cycle and samples at 48 kHz. The ADC's have a 102 dB s/n and the DAC's have a 105 dB dynamic range. It is a high end processor and we really push it beyond its limits.

Yes sales of the SM have been poor but a lot more than the 20 mentioned. Our target market is not the QQ members ( we really like you guys) but is actually the consumer mass market and ultimately the adoption of the Involve recording format as a new standard. This we understand is a huge task and we have only just begun. Our feed back so far is that the store buyers really do not understand the SM as it is not a pre packaged "receiver based system" but is more of an accessory that requires the user to connect it between the pre amp and the power amp - the latest generation of consumer Mid Fi often does not permit this. Also the plastic box does not suit the audiophile market but the mass consumer market regards the $400 price tag too high for a tiny plastic box. The lack of HDMI interface is also a major barrier to that market.

With all this in mind we are full steam ahead in reworking the way the SM (and now Total Perspective) is packaged for the market. We are trying to stand out from the rather boring pack of uninspired audio gear languishing in sales in consumer distributors (see the https://www.quadraphonicquad.com/forums/showthread.php?17946-INVOLVE-COMING-NEW-TECHNOLOGY ) thread. So far only one QQ forum member has auditioned Total Perspective being used with Involve decode, in case you have not heard his interview check out "Dwight" on https://www.quadraphonicquad.com/forums/showthread.php?18329-Involve-Total-Perspective-interview and click the 4 audio interview (blue )links at the top of the page.

I/ we have been around in different company names since 1995 - primarily with the development of electrostatic speaker technology, companies included Vass Electronics, Ozteck, Winovate P/L, Immersion Plc, Reality Technologies and now Involve audio. They key developmental staff have been retained. We continue to support all equipment sold since 1995 and have never had a consumer complaint. All our personnel are totally committed to what we believe is the superiority of our technology and its eventual market penetration even though we are located "down under" in the arse end of the world.

In many ways we will follow the Dyson market model of developing radically different and superior technologies (a bit like Nakamichi did in the mid 70's), it might be my natural Dutch arrogance but I am aiming for our new systems to be released mid year to be a real technological jump on any thing seen before.

Keep the faith


Chucky

I do have another question - maybe I missed this but...

is the Involve decoding all done in analog using specialized discrete chips, like Sansui/Tate, or is it done in digital domain with DSP? if all digital, does anyone know what ADC and DAC chips and sampling rates/bits are used in both conversions?

 

[JonUrban]

Chucky,

I really wish you guys could send an eval unit to Sound & Vision Magazine here in the States. Although they've gone through a lot of changes, they are still very surround friendly, and I think they would appreciate the surround master for what it is.

Also, there is a journalist named Mark Brown. He is a member here infrequently, but is a very strong proponent of surround and the old quad stuff. Maybe he could do a write up on the SM in the LA Times or something like that.

https://www.quadraphonicquad.com/forums/member.php?4931-markbrow

Here's a link to one of Mark's surround related articles from a few years ago:
http://www.latimesmagazine.com/2010/06/hear-and-now.html

There is a lot more to the world of surround than is here at QQ.

 

[Robert van Diggele]

Looking forward to hear more about the Involve products, especially the pre-amp.

 

[steelydave]

Sorry if I've missed it somewhere, but what's the barrier to having an HDMI output on the Surround Master? If the processing is being done in the digital domain, digital output seems like a no-brainer, especially with fewer and fewer amps being produced with 5.1 analog inputs, let alone multiple sets.

 

[fredblue]

one could also make use of room correction/EQ etc if going via HDMI out.

 

[ss9001]

Chucky,

I really wish you guys could send an eval unit to Sound & Vision Magazine here in the States.

Second that Jon. PLUS, I highly recommend sending one to Kal Rubinson at Stereophile, maybe even more so than S&V. S&V, had more articles on & announcements for 5.1 recordings than their new owner, Home Theater Mag, but...

Kal has a monthly writeup in the magazine & online called Music in the Round and he's always testing, trying & commenting on various prepros, processors, DSP's, room correction EQ systems, and 5.1 music (although his are mostly the classical or jazz bent).

http://www.stereophile.com/category/music-round/

He has written about Integra's, Marantz's, Trinnov, Audyssey, various processors & preamps past & present, multichannel amps, recordings. Jan 2014 issue he wrote up a $20K+ surround processor from Illusonic and a $600 MiniDSP EQ unit. both ends of the spectrum! frankly, the main reason I buy Stereophile on occasion is to read his column & their recording reviews - because the majority of gear they review is beyond my budget or practical sense, like $100K amps

But if Involve was to increase their exposure to surround music fans, it definitely wouldn't hurt to get Kal to eval one. Kal has posted in this forum and is a frequent contributor at AVSForum. I know you posted about SM on AVS but getting more exposure there would be a plus, being that AVS is a world-wide forum and they have sub-forum dedicated to surround music. Maybe I missed a post from him there or here but it wouldn't hurt to try him if he hasn't already been contacted.

I plan on ordering the SQ version in Feb; I've already spent my Jan A/V $ allotment but Chuck, look for another sale in several weeks

One more thing, Chuck. You mention getting CE companies to bundle your technology into their gear. Increasingly, THX processing is being dropped from receivers not only for mfg cost savings but also to free up DSP resources for advancements in room correction EQ systems, enhanced matrix decoding like PLIIz & NeoX, and, hopefully soon, 3D metadata driven positional audio. Why not contact Pioneer, D&M, Onkyo and see if you can sell them on the idea of adding Involve to their features instead of the faux reverb surround modes they all seem to think they need to compete with Yamaha DSP? I know I've had a conversation with the head of home audio at one of these AVR companies about junking these useless "advanced surround" modes that no one in their right mind uses to free up DSP for more useful things like more advanced room EQ algorithms. I can PM you with that person's name if you are interested - probably too late for everyone's 2014 models but you can always look to 2015-16.

Getting your technology out of a box and into the receiver also alleviates you needing to get into the HDMI quagmire and would allow it to be used with room EQ systems. as you know, room correction systems like Audyssey, Trinnov, Pioneer's MCACC, Yamaha YPAO, are highly valued for both movies & music. and if one peruses various owner threads at AVS, much of enthusiast interest & brand loyalty centers around the features & advantages, real & perceived , of one system over another. it is the subject of much discussion & debate, where enthusiasts go around with RTA measuring tools to fine-tune their setups to the nth degree. And since ADC's on analog multichannel inputs went away and increasingly, the inputs themselves are dropped, you have the Perfect Storm where there's no way to get an external box's outputs into a modern HT receiver plus you would be asking owners to give up their room EQ systems - a nearly impossible task for enthusiasts. It's an HDMI & DSP world...and external decoders are anachronistic with modern AVR's. You need to get your decoding into the receivers

The only reason many can use your existing decoder is the fact that we may still have receivers with multichannel inputs, have setups where we can switch outputs to amps, use multiple speaker switchers, or have separate music-movie systems. That is definitely NOT the norm with 99.9999% owners. In my case, I use my Sansui & Tate by taking their preamp outs to the analog inputs of my modern HT receiver that still has ADC's which I don't use. it's pure analog and when I listen to quad, I don't use the room EQ. but not using room-speaker calibration is a very real disadvantage for the vast majority of potential users of your tech & will continue to haunt you.

All of this is well-known to you but bears emphasizing again if you want your technology to succeed in existing reality.

I'm very glad I discovered your company & product, even by accident

 

[chucky3042]

Hello All

Firstly many thanks to Jon and ss9001 in regards to the review contacts and suggestions, we will follow up your suggestions this week. We really appreciate suggestions from QQ members.

In regards to contacting major CE's the problem (believe it or not) is finding an entrance door, I have lost count of the many times I have tried phone calls, emails, letters but in 99% of cases you do not even get a reply. Sometimes (not to mention any names ) when we have gotten a response usually by an internal "mate" contact the response is along the lines that "we are a follower - not a leader", it is a brave manufacturer that adopts a new technology that essentially says the rest are wrong as it is an expensive exercise to educate a market.

I have found in the past the most successful technique is to actually go overseas and personally walk in the door. This is however an expensive and high risk strategy involving Japan, China, USA and Europe and we feel that it is highly important to be very well prepared with "ready to go" compact consumer product. In addition our observation (right or wrong) is that the home audio field has not had any real revolutionary change since the CD and player and frankly the general audio market is bored and confused with ever more complex receiver based home surround systems offering a multitude of "logos" that no one ever uses. We really want to simplify the surround setup essentially back to STEREO!!!!!! Even a stupid bastard like me can understand that.

If any QQ members have contacts inside major CE' s we would love to know (and cut you in on the deal) so yes ss9001 your help would be appreciated.

We are currently investigating HDMI but the barriers are related to the entrance license fee, new electronics and new (METAL ) box. Right now we are stretched to the limit of our R+D time on existing projects and it is a few months away.

Robert, the encoder/ decoder preamp is proceeding well and is 80% tested - with a bit of luck it will be fully tested this coming week. We are waiting on the metal enclosure at the moment - unfortunately in Australia industry really restarts after the 20 of January. It will need a small error correct on the electronic/ boards design but that will happen in a month time after the electronics for the bookshelf surround/ Total Perspective system is completed. Note that this is the studio version with isolated XLR inputs we need to do the design of the more consumer unit with MM and MC phono yet. If you guys are nice I will publish a photo of the "rats nest" of the electronics of the encoder/ decoder pre amp this coming week - its not a simple system.

Ho Ho

Chucky

 

[ss9001]

^^
no promises, but I'll shoot you a PM. maybe you've tried to contact this person already but maybe not...

 

[Robert van Diggele]

Thanks Chucky for the update.

And you might give contacting Oppo a try. Their latest players have DTS NEO:6 built in, so Involve could be a nice addition. I have no contact name but their customer support always responds very quickly, they probably can tell who you to contact.

http://www.oppo-bluray.co.uk/contact-us/
http://oppodigital.com/ContactUs.aspx

 

[ss9001]

^^
good idea...I was thinking Oppo at lunchtime today. It just may take someone like Oppo, who has been both cutting edge and hi-value in the BD player market by continuously adding new features. this could be up their alley.

the problem with increasing the market for the Surround Master is 1) lack of brand name recognition for mass consumers and 2) it's an analog product. with so many using media players, PC based audio, Pandora & Spotify for music, if a device doesn't have digital or HDMI I/O's, it's not going to find much more than niche support, I'm afraid. Involve needs to get it inside some device or put SPDIF/toslink,USB or HDMI I/O's on the box. Go to AVSForum and look thru countless posts on setting up multizones with HT receivers. Hardly anyone wants to use analog, everyone wants digital or HDMI for 2nd/3rd room setups. And it was last year that any receivers had a true independent 2nd zone HDMI output. Pioneer was the 1st. I don't recall the mfg, but now some receivers have multizone digital capability. With the exception of us audiophiles and quadraphiles, the world of analog is mostly gone. there are owners for the past several years asking for legacy-free receivers; they don't see the need or want to pay for connections that they won't use. that's the reality. and people want to use the room EQ correction systems they've paid for and see the benefits of using. with a couple of exceptions you won't see mass market receivers or prepros without some form of room EQ/calibration system. not the hi-end pieces like Bryston but normal Onkyo, Sony, D&M, Pioneer, Yamaha, NAD type receivers.

with almost no receiver having ADC's on multichannel analog inputs now, and increasingly more receivers without the connections at all, the use of a Surround Master device becomes very challenging. Even if you place it between the player and the receiver, without the analog inputs, you're screwed. compared to receivers, the separates market is a lot less. even if you used ext amps with your receiver's preamp outs, now you have to do cable swaps or have a interconnect or speaker switchers to make it work in an existing HT surround setup that lacks multich analog inputs. the trend is not great for an all analog device.

IMO, if Involve is to increase sales past niche, they'll need to develop a decoder with digital/HDMI or convince some AVR/prepro/player company to take a chance and spend the money to incorporate their tech. putting it in powered speakers with preamp inputs would work, but still have a pretty limited market.

I'm not trying to be the wet blanket since I do intend to buy one but I think I am giving a realistic, pragmatic appraisal of the challenges they face in increasing sales past surround music fans with analog gear.

Oppo is a good suggestion

 

[Robert van Diggele]

Exactly, Oppo is a company that is willing to try new things and Involve might be a neat addition.

Great summary on the current state of the electronics market ss9001. All valid points.

 

[chucky3042]

Hi All

Please note that the Surround Master is actually digital compatible but not to HDMI. In the soon to be released (we hope) television with Involve decode built in, we have interfaced it via the standard I2S bus (no analogue stuff).

We will try to contact Oppo, great idea!

Regards

Chucky

Regards

 

[workmeistr]

Chuck, I just ordered my SQ/QS Involve tonight! I have been saving since Aug. I have 120 quad lps, mostly SQ, but some awesome CD-4, demodulated by my Pioneer 949A (I have a few pictures in my Album). Since I have only heard my SQ records being decoded by my 949A, to include DSOTM I received for Christmas, I understand I'm in for quite a treat with the Involve QQ special. I'm counting the days...