Involve Surround music releases, compatible formats?

[Electric Moo]

Lets say you were releasing some music encoded into Quad with Involve's system

Obviously everyone doesn't have an Involve decoder ( yet!! ) so you'd need to list any other formats people could use, to get a reasonable translation

For Legacy equipment: QS is clearly the best? ( edited.... got QS & SQ mixed up!! )

But what about 5.1 or 7.1 formats, with/without sub?

And Stereo should theoretically be fine as well?

What would you write on the album cover, so people could make informed gear playback choices?

Thanks

 

[furui_suterioo]

The Involve format is closest to QS, but I have listened to Involve encoded material through the Surround mode on Fosgate Tate 101a and it works well also.

 

[J. PUPSTER]

Lets say you were releasing some music encoded into Quad with Involves system

Obviously everyone doesn't have an Involve decoder ( yet!! ) so you'd need to list any other formats people could use, to get a reasonable translation

For Legacy equipment: SQ is clearly the best (?)

But what about 5.1 or 7.1 formats, with/without sub?

And Stereo should theoretically be fine as well?

What would you write on the album cover, so people could make informed gear playback choices?

Thanks

One possibility;-
Per wiki:

In 2000, Dolby introduced Dolby Pro Logic II (DPL II), an improved implementation of Dolby Pro Logic created by Jim Fosgate.[3] DPL II processes any high-quality stereo signal source into five separate full frequency channels (right front, center, left front, right rear and left rear). Dolby Pro Logic II also decodes 5 channels from stereo signals encoded in traditional four-channel Dolby Surround. DPL II implements greatly enhanced steering compared to DPL, and as a result, offers an exceptionally stable sound field that simulates 5 channel surround sound.

I recently received an Involve Encoder Board Eval. Kit; and at some point figured I'd encode some stuff and then run it back through my Marantz AVR to see if it decodes any better than just straight from the standard stereo source. IDK, maybe I'm all wet, but will mess with it some non the less.

 

[Mr. Afternoon]

One possibility;-
Per wiki:

In 2000, Dolby introduced Dolby Pro Logic II (DPL II), an improved implementation of Dolby Pro Logic created by Jim Fosgate.[3] DPL II processes any high-quality stereo signal source into five separate full frequency channels (right front, center, left front, right rear and left rear). Dolby Pro Logic II also decodes 5 channels from stereo signals encoded in traditional four-channel Dolby Surround. DPL II implements greatly enhanced steering compared to DPL, and as a result, offers an exceptionally stable sound field that simulates 5 channel surround sound.

I recently received an Involve Encoder Board Eval. Kit; and at some point figured I'd encode some stuff and then run it back through my Marantz AVR to see if it decodes any better than just straight from the standard stereo source. IDK, maybe I'm all wet, but will mess with it some non the less.

Sometimes I encode in DPLII for the lulz when testing and find that it actually does a decent job on some tracks.

 

[Electric Moo]

Argh, I keep getting QS & SQ mixed up!

Sansui developed QS then? I see the S first in SQ and my brain jumps to "Sansui"

 

[furui_suterioo]

Argh, I keep getting QS & SQ mixed up!

Sansui developed QS then? I see the S first in SQ and my brain jumps to "Sansui"

you could switch out "Sansui" for "Sony"

I've also played Involve material throurgh Sansui QSD-2, it us almost the same but not as stable as the actual Involve decoder.

 

[Electric Moo]

Heh, good tip!!

 

[MidiMagic]

I wonder what my mixes would sound like with Involve. I play them with QS pr PL-II.

 

[chucky3042]

I wonder what my mixes would sound like with Involve. I play them with QS pr PL-II.

Wanna evaluation encoder to find out??

 

[MidiMagic]

Wanna evaluation encoder to find out??

They are already encoded. I do that myself.

 

[chucky3042]

They are already encoded. I do that myself.

How is the encoding done, which format?

 

[MidiMagic]

The format is QS/RM/DS format.

I encode with my 4-bus mixer. Each channel can be positioned anywhere in the panorama around the listener by selecting the bus pair and using the pan pot.

In the bus inserts of the 3/4 bus pair, I have a phase reversing device on bus 3. So when the pan pot is centered on the 3/4 bus, the left and right outputs are equal in amplitude, but opposite in phase.

Extra equipment is needed for an overhead (center of room) panning. I have never needed to use it.

I have Samson PL2404 and Behringer UB2442FX-PRO mixers. Both work equally well with this method.

The mixer channel strip is simplified here. I monitor through a PL-II decoder.

And yes, with this setup, I can hear the sound smoothly pan in a circle all the way around with no jumps when I pan it that way. Try that with any other system (including discrete).

 

[Electric Moo]

That's interesting!

curious why the LR sides are hard panned, but the LR rears are not?

Thx!

 

[Electric Moo]

Ah I guess you do want some bleed between the rears, to blend the imaging?

 

[chucky3042]

The format is QS/RM/DS format.

I encode with my 4-bus mixer. Each channel can be positioned anywhere in the panorama around the listener by selecting the bus pair and using the pan pot.

In the bus inserts of the 3/4 bus pair, I have a phase reversing device on bus 3. So when the pan pot is centered on the 3/4 bus, the left and right outputs are equal in amplitude, but opposite in phase.

View attachment 70053

Extra equipment is needed for an overhead (center of room) panning. I have never needed to use it.

I have Samson PL2404 and Behringer UB2442FX-PRO mixers. Both work equally well with this method.

The mixer channel strip is simplified here. I monitor through a PL-II decoder

And yes, with this setup, I can hear the sound smoothly pan in a circle all the way around with no jumps when I pan it that way. Try that with any other system (including discrete).

The Involve encoder is different, it's heart is QS but it is triband and the matrix parameters vary in accordance with the nature of the Surround content. The aim was to make the encode stream sound like Nirmal stereo and no apparent reduction of the surround

 

[Electric Moo]

It's all about those Nirms!!

 

[jaybird100]

The Involve encoder is different, it's heart is QS but it is triband and the matrix parameters vary in accordance with the nature of the Surround content. The aim was to make the encode stream sound like Nirmal stereo and no apparent reduction of the surround

And it works!

 

[MidiMagic]

That's interesting!

curious why the LR sides are hard panned, but the LR rears are not?

Thx!

For the same reason the LF-RF are not hard panned.

This is the panning diagram for Dolby Surround. It will do for QS,

When the panpot is all the way to the left, it is encoding straight left, whether or not the front or back phasing is selected.

The LF and RF pan setting is such that the dominant channel gets 0.92 of the signal and the opposite channel gets 0.38 of the signal. These are the QS front coefficients.

The LB and RB pan setting is such that the dominant channel gets 0.92 of the signal and the opposite channel gets 0.38 of the signal. These are the QS back coefficients.

Let's pan a sound all around the room while decoding in QS so you can see:

Start with pan control full left with 3/4 button released. This is left side.
Turn pan control 1/4* clockwise. Sound moves forward to left front speaker.
Turn pan control to center. Sound moves right to center front position.
Turn pan control 1/4* clockwise. Sound moves right to right front speaker.
Turn pan control fully clockwise. Sound moves backward to right side.
Depress 3/4 button, selecting back half of the encoding. Sound is still right side.
Turn pan 1/4* anticlockwise. Sound moves backward to right back speaker.
Turn pan control to center. Sound moves left to center back position.
Turn pan 1/4* anticlockwise. Sound moves left to left back speaker.
Turn pan fully anticlockwise. Sound moves forward to left side.
Release 3/4 button, selecting front half of the encoding. Sound is still left side.

* The exact position of the pan control for encoding to any of the 4 corners differs by mixer design and must be found experimentally. It is approximately 1/4 turn, but often the knob points straight left or right. I do it by ear.

I have been doing this for 22 years.

I don't want an encoder that plays with the image positions. I want this straightforward system.

I have done SQ encoding with a similar mixer and an SQ decoder.

 

[Electric Moo]

Thanks for the explanation!

 

[MidiMagic]

I just realized the question was not fully answered.

The QS encoding can be played on SM, DS (any analog), QS, EV-4, DQ, and DD.