Isn't poll voting odd?

Help Support QuadraphonicQuad:

rikpepe

Well-known Member
Joined
Mar 13, 2005
Messages
170
Location
Connecticut USA
Bob Marley was never my cup of tea (too)- repetitive and redundant <skip> repetitive and redundant <skip> repetitive and redundant (see also derivative "I shot the Sheriff") OK music for swilling beer on the beach - I get sleepy at the 2nd refrain - Frankly.
Speaking of ethnically diverse music any else here or hear or heard
the 5.1 release of "White Lines" by Melle Mel and the Furious Five ?
 

4-earredwonder

QQ Lifetime Supporter
QQ Lifetime Supporter
Joined
Jan 9, 2013
Messages
17,287
I grew up reading music/movie reviews religiously. Sometimes the 'critic' was right on and other times I disagreed with their assessment but all in all, everyone has a distinct right to their own opinions. I have tons of classical music in every conceivable format but have realized that unless you're a musician, a musicologist or are adept at reading music, what endears me to the piece is my reaction, positive or negative to the piece.

I also LOVE melody. A lot of music, especially country, has that worn out feeling. It's been done to death. Unless a piece stands apart from the crowd......I try to avoid it.

Rock music, IMO, had a more challenging aspect to it in the 60's and 70's. It was, IMO, a golden age when melody flourished, the concept album was born and musicians were inspired by the muses which informed them. I'm sure there is a wealth of new music available today but as I don't avail myself of radio or watch video's anymore [who does?], I profess ignorance.

I watch a lot of those late night shows and when they highligh a particular artist ........ I watch ... and listen ..... but have hardly been moved in the last few years to say ..... WOW ..... brilliant! Is it just that I'm jaded or is it possibly that the acts got smaller.

After all, Billy Joel,Elton John and most iconic rock bands of that 60/70's time frame are just coasting along on the hits which made them famous decades ago. So, really, it's all about that MUSE. Once it abandons the artist ........ it's either time to retire or reinvent oneself ....... and as we all know .... NOT an easy task.
 

Frogmort

1K Club - QQ Shooting Star
Joined
Dec 20, 2013
Messages
1,619
Location
Frogmorton, TN
Bob Marley was never my cup of tea (too)- repetitive and redundant <skip> repetitive and redundant <skip> repetitive and redundant (see also derivative "I shot the Sheriff") OK music for swilling beer on the beach - I get sleepy at the 2nd refrain - Frankly.
Speaking of ethnically diverse music any else here or hear or heard
the 5.1 release of "White Lines" by Melle Mel and the Furious Five ?
See, to me that's one of the best things about the polls on here and how willy-nilly they are. My bread n' butter is hard-core old-school prog. Rush, Crimson, Yes, Zappa, Beck (Jeff), etc, but I still really appreciate the more simple things, like The Beatles, or Bob Marley.

A lot of pop music has the beat on 1 & 3, and reggae flips that around and puts the beats on 2 & 4. I freakin' love that bouncy buoyancy. I see Bob Marley as very anthematic pop/folk music, and I just love it!

By the way, you do realize that Clapton ripped off Marley on 'I Shot the Sheriff', right?
 

ssully

2K Club - QQ Super Nova
Since 2002/2003
Joined
Jul 2, 2003
Messages
3,080
Location
in your face
Bob Marley was never my cup of tea (too)- repetitive and redundant <skip> repetitive and redundant <skip> repetitive and redundant (see also derivative "I shot the Sheriff") OK music for swilling beer on the beach - I get sleepy at the 2nd refrain - Frankly.
Speaking of ethnically diverse music any else here or hear or heard
the 5.1 release of "White Lines" by Melle Mel and the Furious Five ?
Marley wrote "I Shot the Sheriff". The Clapton version was a cover. Of course you know that, right?
 

rikpepe

Well-known Member
Joined
Mar 13, 2005
Messages
170
Location
Connecticut USA
Marley wrote "I Shot the Sheriff". The Clapton version was a cover. Of course you know that, right?
of course i am more of western euro-asia music from rock to classical. That is Floyd Renaissance elp yes tull caravan to Jarre to Kreaftwerk to Triumverat to Yello to Banco del mutuo soccorso to Vangelis (earth to 666 to mythodea) to Bach to Beethoven to the great Russians aka Rimsky-Korsekov. That is why ol bob never floated my boat. I really did love his son Rohan.
 

rikpepe

Well-known Member
Joined
Mar 13, 2005
Messages
170
Location
Connecticut USA
I grew up reading music/movie reviews religiously. Sometimes the 'critic' was right on and other times I disagreed with their assessment but all in all, everyone has a distinct right to their own opinions. I have tons of classical music in every conceivable format but have realized that unless you're a musician, a musicologist or are adept at reading music, what endears me to the piece is my reaction, positive or negative to the piece.

I also LOVE melody. A lot of music, especially country, has that worn out feeling. It's been done to death. Unless a piece stands apart from the crowd......I try to avoid it.

Rock music, IMO, had a more challenging aspect to it in the 60's and 70's. It was, IMO, a golden age when melody flourished, the concept album was born and musicians were inspired by the muses which informed them. I'm sure there is a wealth of new music available today but as I don't avail myself of radio or watch video's anymore [who does?], I profess ignorance.

I watch a lot of those late night shows and when they highligh a particular artist ........ I watch ... and listen ..... but have hardly been moved in the last few years to say ..... WOW ..... brilliant! Is it just that I'm jaded or is it possibly that the acts got smaller.

After all, Billy Joel,Elton John and most iconic rock bands of that 60/70's time frame are just coasting along on the hits which made them famous decades ago. So, really, it's all about that MUSE. Once it abandons the artist ........ it's either time to retire or reinvent oneself ....... and as we all know .... NOT an easy task.

Very true but a few kept trying like a a posthumous symphony by Keith Emerson came out -Nov 2.
 

~dave~~wave~

900 Club - QQ All-Star
QQ Supporter
Joined
Jun 7, 2016
Messages
960
Location
Lincoln, NE USA
The polls are BS really. You are voting for the mix and the content. I think these are 2 separate "issues". But it is the only system we have.
Read the poll today - I just shake my head in disbelief. Proof enough of the end of civilization as we know it. I guess there will always be an outlier. But at the top? Really? Just because of the first minute of golly-gee? I'm going back to my rocking chair and cranking King Crimson and something else I can't tell you about - yet.
Might want to check the latest update.
Order has been restored temporarily over irrational exuberance. ;)
 

HDave

500 Club - QQ All-Star
Joined
Feb 4, 2014
Messages
509
Location
Somewhere
I used to vote based on familiarity of previously owning a title, was this new 5.1 better than I've ever heard it sound before, and my votes were skewed towards the high side. When I listened and compared against other mixes I started being more analytical with my votes more nit picky.
It will shock me momentarily when a what I consider a marginal sounding release is at the top because you only need 10 votes to get on the polls.🤯 (Moving it to 25 might balance it better but would eliminate most of the DV releases I'm sure they sell enough but not garnering votes)
Maybe if your favorite disc is only a couple votes from getting on the poll it might motivate voting. I have plenty I've not voted on yet for one reason or another but will not vote for a disc I don't like (Sea Change besides others, I've then sold) I think 6-7 would be my low end vote anyways, if it's not top *3* I wouldn't recommend it but that's my take on it. Hell I've un voted on titles I no longer own not wanting to be hypocritical. I'm sure we have some of those which I hope is a small percentage. Members voting on titles they don't even own to skew the results. Right now it's a system that works if it's got over 100 votes and it's near the top of the heap then it's as accurate as I think it can be.
.images.jpeg
Going to 25 would remove 197 titles, besides lower numbers also low scores and I only own one and it's marginal Alice in Chains Best Of/greatest hits whatever, not very memorable( I haven't voted on it, good songs bad fidelity and mix).
 
Last edited:

albertop

300 Club - QQ All-Star
Joined
Jul 19, 2017
Messages
317
Location
Melbourne, Australia
In my opinion, the problem with poll voting is that we don't have well-defined rubrics and assessment criteria to be able to vote with method and consistency.
We are supposed to express our opinion on music, fidelity and mix, but that's not enough to be able to identify what distinguishes a 6 from a 10, or to understand what's the threshold for sufficiency (or decency).
I've recently purchased Rush/Moving Pictures based on the poll results, and I found the mix extremely disappointing. If poll are used as purchasing new surround releases, then they are not working that well. The way I read them: don't buy anything below 9, which is odd.
 

HomerJAU

Moderator: MCH Media Players
Staff member
Moderator
Moderator
Joined
Jun 13, 2013
Messages
4,220
Location
Melbourne, Australia
The way I read them: don't buy anything below 9, which is odd.
Content. If you know and like an album, someone else who’s not familiar may vote a 7 or 8 where you would give a 9 (or 10).

Maybe Rush is just not an Aussie thing. I wasn’t familiar with any albums but I bought at least 3 Rush albums in MCH and I didn’t get into any of them. They never get played here. Waste of plastic for me.

They polls are a great guide but I’ve learnt to listen to music from an album online BEFORE buying a surround release if I’m not familiar with the artist or the album.
 

albertop

300 Club - QQ All-Star
Joined
Jul 19, 2017
Messages
317
Location
Melbourne, Australia
Content. If you know and like an album, someone else who’s not familiar may vote a 7 or 8 where you would give a 9 (or 10).

Maybe Rush is just not an Aussie thing. I wasn’t familiar with any albums but I bought at least 3 Rush albums in MCH and I didn’t get into any of them. They never get played here. Waste of plastic for me.

They polls are a great guide but I’ve learnt to listen to music from an album online BEFORE buying a surround release if I’m not familiar with the artist or the album.
I think you are totally right, and you are supporting my point that we should probably review our marking criteria...
In my opinion, mix and fidelity should be more important than music/content for the polls. If not, the ranking becomes pretty obvious, with The Beatles, Pink Floyd and a few others in the top 10.
I also believe that we should provide a rubric, or a marking guide.. such as 6 means x,y,z.. 7 means x,y,z... and so forth. If one votes 9 should also be able to state what's missing to get a 10, and stuff like that. I'm not trying to make everything more objective, I cannot be, but it would probably help moderate the marking.

Another issue is aging. Some of these votes needs to be updated as soon as new releases come out and make previous releases outdated. King Crimson's 40th anniversary is a clear example of a surround mix that was ok 10 years ago and can now be filed, at least in my opinion.
 

artwwweb

Senior Member
Joined
Dec 23, 2010
Messages
258
I started writing this in a poll thread when discussing a specific score, but then thought I shouldn't drift off-topic, so I looked for a more relevant thread...

I don't find the poll votes very useful because everybody votes high. However, I find the comments extremely useful. So I tend to comment and not worry too much about the votes.

It's understandable that people vote high:
1) Most people do only buy stuff they think they'll like, so of course the scores are going to be above average.
2) It helps people justify their taste/ financial outlay (and this is not a criticism - it's just what we all do to some extent).
3) New releases especially will be biased higher due to novelty - this is a known problem with all kinds of votes (e.g. films - I remember hearing years ago that in some 'best film ever' poll you weren't allowed to vote on a film less than 10 years old.)
4) Peer pressure - if most people vote high, we want to and/or feel we have to.

I think 1) is valid, but we ought to try to avoid the other reasons. It would be nice if somehow we could restart the voting (I know that would be unrealistic) so that a 6 or 7 are not embarrassing and even a 5 is reasonable effort. It's not just that it would separate the very good (7) from the truly excellent (10), it would also separate the 'not very good' (3) from the 'truly awful' (1)

Having browsed these and other comments, I think most people are roughly in agreement: The mix is the most important, then the sound, then the music. (NB: Of course the music is the most important on a personal basis, but on a surround forum, it's the mix that is the highlight. And crucially, one can usually audition the music on YouTube, etc. so it is less important to know others' opinions on the music when making a decision about buying.)

We are all going to have our own tastes and ways of assessing things, but maybe the most important thing for me is - it would be nice if more people made comments in the polls.
 
Last edited:

Bill B

Well-known Member
Joined
Mar 14, 2021
Messages
146
Location
Maryland
I think 1) is valid, but we ought to try to avoid the other reasons. It would be nice if somehow we could restart the voting (I know that would be unrealistic) so that a 6 or 7 are not embarrassing and even a 5 is reasonable effort. It's not just that it would separate the very good (7) from the truly excellent (10), it would also separate the 'not very good' (3) from the 'truly awful' (1)
From a totally statistical POV, I agree with this. If the average score for most discs isn't somewhere in the 4 to 6 range by most people then everything is above average. And if everything is above average then the ratings don't mean as much. Maybe people are less likely to vote negatively, not due to peer pressure but just because it isn't worth their time.
 

ssully

2K Club - QQ Super Nova
Since 2002/2003
Joined
Jul 2, 2003
Messages
3,080
Location
in your face
A scale of 1 -10, with no description of what differentiates each rank except 1 and 10 , is far too granular. (Plus there is no middle value (5.5) in such a scale, so you literally can't designate something 'average' using it.) Compressing the scale to 5 rankings, or even just 3, would be more realistically possible to judge, and might, possibly, generate less ridiculous 'grade inflation'.

You don't see '10 star' rating systems for movies, hotels, restaurants, do you?
 

Audiowannabee

1K Club - QQ Shooting Star
Joined
Dec 26, 2018
Messages
1,567
Location
Orlando
I think more people need to participate more. I think it should have more votes needed to get into the polls like atleast 20-30
 

steelydave

Moderator
Staff member
Moderator
Since 2002/2003
Joined
Apr 21, 2002
Messages
2,464
Location
Toronto, ON
I agree that the poll voting system is a bit flawed, but by the same token it's also the largest assemblage of qualitative judgement about surround music available anywhere, and there's a lot of value in that. The programming team at facebook has a motto that goes something like "done is better than perfect" and I really think that applies here - yes, maybe you won't get a number grade for every release that perfectly reflects the title's quality on an absolute scale, but if you're thinking about buying something, chances are if you dip into the poll thread here you'll be able to get some kind of idea about whether it's worth pursuing or not.

I absolutely agree that posts in poll threads add just as much, if not more value than just simply voting. You don't have to post an essay, or even a paragraph - it's a bit like when you're shopping on amazon or the gap or something, a single sentence review that tells how well the product works or how well the clothing item fits (and not a complaint about shipping or customer service) can be invaluable to someone considering a purchase. The same applies here - a single sentence that highlights something very good, or very bad about the album in question (sonics, mix, songwriting, whatever) can have the same effect for someone who hasn't heard it.

I've seen plenty of suggestions over the years about things we could do to make the polls "better," some good, others less so. The simple fact of the matter is that with nearly 20 years of history, the odds of the polls being significantly overhauled are relatively slim. I'm not sure people realize how much work goes in to the simple day-to-day running of the site, which is entirely done by volunteers who all have "real lives" to deal with like all of the users who frequent the site do, but they also deal with mediating squabbles between users, moderating threads and moving posts, creating poll threads, maintaining surround engineer and poll databases, and plenty more.

I hope people will think of this site as something that everyone has a part in contributing to, and not just something you passively use like a kind of online encyclopedia when you need information. Between the 5 different sub-forums in the Surround Music Polls section there are dozens, if not hundreds of polls that either have no votes, or not enough votes to qualify for inclusion in the Surround Polls table. We have just shy of 11,000 registered members, only a fraction of which post, and only a fraction of those are active in the poll section. I don't care if you've posted once or 10,000 times, your vote counts, and there's no better way you can add value to this site than by diving into the poll section and showing some love (or hate!) for some of those more neglected titles, either with a vote, or even better, with a comment, no matter if it's a word, a sentence, or a paragraph.
 
Top