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Lennon 'Gimme Some Truth' 5.1 Audio Levels - DTS vs DD

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fthesoundguy

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Whoa, this is a insane difference and definitely doesn't look like the same mix when boosted. Since I can't rip (yet), it looks like i'll be listening to the DD stream (My oldish AVR can do it). Though I will have fun listening to both and comparing! Sucks that its the DTS that is all messed up, but at least we have one stream that seems correct. Does the Atmos stream seem alright?
 

JonUrban

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What's strange to me is the variance from track to track. It's not like you can flat out say "Increase the volume of the rears 'x' amount on all tracks and you have the same listening experience". Some are significantly lower than others, and some are very close, and some look like they are completely different mixes.

All this aside, the surround mixes on the '80s tracks is excellent and well worth the price of the box. So, buyer be aware of the differences, and if you have the capability, maybe you could make your own 5.1 mix from pieces of the 2 5.1 mixes and the 7.1 mixes. Then you'd have your own mix tailored to your ears! Fun is........
 

ssully

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This is great! And it refutes my idea, based on the few caps I saw before, that it's just simple level difference...these looks like significantly different masterings, so there's no simple way to mimic DD<-->DTS. How foolish and bizarre of them to do that. I wonder what EQ profiling of the same front or rear channel of DTS vs DD would show...
 

JonUrban

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This is great! And it refutes my idea, based on the few caps I saw before, that it's just simple level difference...these looks like significantly different masterings, so there's no simple way to mimic DD<-->DTS. How foolish and bizarre of them to do that. I wonder what EQ profiling of the same front or rear channel of DTS vs DD would show...
I know ssully. I didn't really notice it until I did all of these today, these show that some have really different mixes as well as masterings! How can that be? Instant Karma is totally obvious, especially if you look at the DD 5.1 after I applied the normalization to it (Post #18). It looks very different than the DTS. Very strange.
 

ssully

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And just to demonstrate that DD vs DTS waveforms need NOT look so different...here is a short track (Yes, 5% For Nothing), converted from 5.1 PCM (top) to AC3(middle) and to DTS (bottom), using Audiomuxer. Only the front left and right channels are shown, as is, no level adjustments.

What was done to the Lennon DTS versions was a choice, it's nothing inevitable.
 

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ssully

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(I'd be hard pressed to tell my waveforms apart...but spectral view proves they are certainly different --though not necessarily audibly)
 

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ssully

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I know ssully. I didn't really notice it until I did all of these today, these show that some have really different mixes as well as masterings! How can that be? Instant Karma is totally obvious, especially if you look at the DD 5.1 after I applied the normalization to it (Post #18). It looks very different than the DTS. Very strange.
Are any vocals and instruments panned differently in the two versions of 'Karma'? That, to me, would be a different mix.

The differences offhand could be multiband compression or EQ applied to the DTS version of the mix. That wouldn't be a different mix, to me , but it would still be different! But I don't have the set, so I can't confirm any of this.
 
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JonUrban

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Are any vocals and instruments panned differently in the two versions of 'Karma'? That, to me, would be a different mix.

The differences offhand could be multiband compression or EQ applied to the DTS version of the mix. That wouldn't be a different mix, strictly speaking, but it would still be different! But I don't have the set, so I can't confirm any of this.
If I get time this weekend I will deconstruct Karma. I can run both versions through RX8's music rebalance which will leave me with only the vocals in all 10 channels. That should make it easy to hear if there's any difference in the vocal distribution between the two mixes/masterings.
 

Simon A

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If I get time this weekend I will deconstruct Karma. I can run both versions through RX8's music rebalance which will leave me with only the vocals in all 10 channels. That should make it easy to hear if there's any difference in the vocal distribution between the two mixes/masterings.
Wait, are you saying that you could take a song with cow bell in it, isolate it and have a 10 track multichannel mix of pure cowbell? That is AMAZING! :SB
 

elmer

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Also, where did you get the DD tracks--the Gimme Some Truth box offers only DTS.5.1
The box contains both DTS HD MA 5.1 (which has a core stream of DTS) and Dolby Tru HD 7.1 (which contains metadata for Dolby Atmos capable systems and a core stream of Dolby Digital). Depending on your system’s’ capabilities you will be able to decode one or more of these formats. Dolby Digital being the most “lossy” of the formats. A ripping program such as MakeMKV will allow you to extact each of these streams as a separate MKV file.
 

atomicdog

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The box contains both DTS HD MA 5.1 (which has a core stream of DTS) and Dolby Tru HD 7.1 (which contains metadata for Dolby Atmos capable systems and a core stream of Dolby Digital). Depending on your system’s’ capabilities you will be able to decode one or more of these formats. Dolby Digital being the most “lossy” of the formats. A ripping program such as MakeMKV will allow you to extact each of these streams as a separate MKV file.
I'm running through a Marantz 1609 AV, that I haven't been that impressed with.
 

JonUrban

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For the uninitiated, what does this mean? What are we seeing?

Also, where did you get the DD tracks--the Gimme Some Truth box offers only DTS.5.1
You can clearly see that normalizing the Dolby Digital gives you a wav file that does not even come close to what you have in the DTS file below it, of the same song. This would indicate a different mix or a case of extremely different mastering.

Yes there are both Dolby and DTS streams on the bluray. If you look at post #1 in this thread, you will see what the Music Helper extractor found in the MKV file of the bluray, which shows DTS-HD 5.1, DTS 5.1, DTS 7.1 and Dobly Digital 5.1
 

JonUrban

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From your first screenshot it looks like you have ripped these tracks into FLAC files and then analyzed them. Am I wrong? :cool:
MKV Lennon Bluray.jpg

MKV Lennon Bluray MH1.jpg


The bluray was ripped with MakeMKV and then the audio extracted using Music Media Helper 4.0.12, the result being 5.1 flac and/or 5.1 wav files
 
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sjcorne

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Also, where did you get the DD tracks--the Gimme Some Truth box offers only DTS.5.1
The Dolby Atmos stream included on the Blu-Ray includes a series of embedded 'core' audio streams to ensure compatibility for listeners with older equipment. If you have an older AVR that pre-dates Dolby Atmos, it will play back in 7.1 Dolby TrueHD. If you have an even older AVR that pre-dates Dolby TrueHD, it will play back in 5.1 Dolby Digital.
 

ssully

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From your first screenshot it looks like you have ripped these tracks into FLAC files and then analyzed them. Am I wrong? :cool:
Decoded lossy DTS and DD are PCM (wav). For analyzing them (or listening to them) that's not optional.

Lossless compression (FLAC) after decoding is optional....and useful for tagging.
 

albertop

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Thanks for posting all of these waveforms @JonUrban, amazing work. The DTS waveforms for the Imagine tracks look similar to the 5.1 mix of the 2018 release. That leads me to agree with @ssully, as the differences between DTS and DD seems to be a deliberate choice. I am still waiting to receive my box set, so I cannot comment on the DD mix, but I remember very well how the 2018 mixes sound. There was nothing particularly exciting in the rear channels, apart from the end of Oh Yoko. Also, I am looking forward to hearing about your findings between DD vs DTS. I don't believe it's a simple matter of volume for the rear channels. There might be other minor differences between the two mixes.
 
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