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bluelightning

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But was it 'early digital' or 'early mastering for digital release'. But then, why do the self-professed connoisseurs on places like Steve Hoffman's forum seek out 80's era 'target CDs' if early digital was so dire? Maybe the 'badness' of 'early digital' is more legendary than real? I find it hard to believe that everyone who claims to remember how 'bad' it was, was hearing the absence of dither.
There are many factors in here including personal preferences. There are also mastering choices. Sometimes earlier CDs were mastered with lesser compression than later versions. Dither is not a cure all. It has very specific uses, generally to increase effective bit depth so that signals smaller than a LSB can be represented. It does nothing to your frequency response.
 

markshan

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Tubes look so tubey!



You mean audible noise? (I try not to add that to any of my files.)



Just because people have preferences , doesn't mean it's beyond the realm of science. Science actually studies those, too.
I think you just like to hear yourself talk. It's not just this thread that leads me to that conclusion.
 

markshan

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Sound better is different than more accurate. Tubes sound better because people like the sound of the distortion products it creates due to its inherent non linearities, NOT because they are more accurate. There is also the warm sound from a rolled off response. When people say they like a more "analog" sound or sometimes tubes they are generally saying they like a rolled off frequency response on the highs. This is again far from accurate. Just because you dont understand engineering and the significance of graphs, don't knock them.

Every piece of electrical equipment you are using , including the device you are using to type on this forum, which is far, far,far more complicated than a "audiophile" audio system relies on these same electrical principles to operate correctly. If indeed there are even slight flaws in the theories or engineering the system would could to a halt.

Consider this: in your average PC , there are billions of instructions executing every second. If in those billions, even ONE bit is incorrect, your system can crash.

I dont understand why is it that audiophiles like to continuously question these principles without even having a basic understanding of them.
I didn't "knock" anything and you just proved my point. Thank you.

I didn't once say "more accurate". I said "more musical". Isn't this supposed to be about enjoying music? If you enjoy looking at graphs, more power to you.
 

bluelightning

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I didn't "knock" anything and you just proved my point. Thank you.

I didn't once say "more accurate". I said "more musical". Isn't this supposed to be about enjoying music? If you enjoy looking at graphs, more power to you.
Fair enough. I think I understand where you are coming from:). What you are saying to me is that you like a sound catered to your particular tastes ( as do I and most of us, Duh), in which case the term " musical " will mean very different things to different people. By that definition a particular component that is in one's system will be "musical" to them because they will have either tuned it to their musical preference or purchased as they like, thus rendering the term meaningless (at least in my understanding).

I won't comment on this any further. Enjoy your music. :SG

I apologize to the OP (hobiedog) for derailing his thread.
 

markshan

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Fair enough. I think I understand where you are coming from:). What you are saying to me is that you like a sound catered to your particular tastes ( as do I and most of us, Duh), in which case the term " musical " will mean very different things to different people. By that definition a particular component that is in one's system will be "musical" to them because they will have either tuned it to their musical preference or purchased as they like, thus rendering the term meaningless (at least in my understanding).

I won't comment on this any further. Enjoy your music. :SG

I apologize to the OP (hobiedog) for derailing his thread.
That's fair. I don't know that the thread is derailed as this all started with me saying that I find my sub "musical".
 

M-D-Z

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Boxes with transducers designed to reproduce the lower frequencies are only good if properly integrated into a complete and appropriately compatible playback system, and when they can benefit from having them.
As a lover of music and a musician (drummer) I spent many years searching for a satisfactory assemblage of audio components up to the task of reproducing music faithfully enough at volume levels ranging from very quiet to electric-live.

I have put together something pretty damn good, of course within the constraints of limited $ resources.
Each part can certainly be improved, but at what cost, and for what gain? Diminishing returns syndrome.

Four 4ohm JBL SR4718X singles, one for each Smith Pro Audio 12” 3-way top. The owner and lead designer of the actual Smith Pro Audio speaker (including the built in crossover) quickly and effortlessly programmed my DriveRack PA+ in a half hour far better than I was capable of doing while tinkering with it’s parameters for two weeks.
I can’t remember the exact slope he chose, but the dbx unit can do Linkwitz-Riley @ 12, 24 dB/octave and Butterworth @ 6,12, 18, & 24 dB/octave.

Being in and around live raw music so much more than EQ-ed, processed, compressed and carefully tweaked recordings has probably made me biased toward preferring a playback system that replicates music more like how a pro sound reinforcement type system would as opposed to an audiophile’s exotic home setup.

I have enjoyed listening to some very nice sounding home systems that truly impressed me, but when I found out what they cost, I was dumbfounded!

How could a home playback system conceivably cost in the hundreds of thousands of dollars just to reproduce the recorded product of what professional music performance equipment creates at the show using equipment that relatively speaking cost pennies on the dollar?

Pros: These JBLs integrate very well with the other pieces for a great and believable performance under all circumstances.
Cons: They are big, being 2’x2’x2’ cubes, and weigh ~100 lbs each, they are no longer made, are very hard to find in good condition at sane prices, but at least I can still buy brand new drivers from JBL.

I don’t know if it’s a valid statement to say that “I believe in subs”, because I’ve had opportunities to listen to astronomically expensive systems that do a commendable job, sometimes without the addition of traditional ‘subs’, but these 18” JBL sub boxes make my system sound better to my ears than anything I have ever heard ~ that I can afford.
 

ssully

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There are many factors in here including personal preferences. There are also mastering choices. Sometimes earlier CDs were mastered with lesser compression than later versions. Dither is not a cure all. It has very specific uses, generally to increase effective bit depth so that signals smaller than a LSB can be represented. It does nothing to your frequency response.
I didn't say it did. We were talking about the rote bashing of 'early digital' that goes on. I was referring to the fact that the main documented 'flaw' of early CD practice was failure to use dither in production steps. The effects of truncation would be audible on very low level portions of the audio -- like fadeouts --if you are listening very closely (e.g. headphones). Of course, it was not an inherent flaw in the technology...it was an error by commercial production 'engineers' who didn't know better, called out by real engineers Lipshitz and Vanderkooy , who did, early on.
 

ssully

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That's fair. I don't know that the thread is derailed as this all started with me saying that I find my sub "musical".
Is that what you think? When I wrote that descriptors like 'fast' and 'musical' for subwoofers were so much audiophile fluffery, I wasn't aware whether you in particular had used the word 'musical'. I wasn't thinking of you or your posts at all. I was simply calling up the two fluffy audiophile terms that have shown up drearily like clockwork in nearly every subwoofer discussion or review I've ever read.
 

bluelightning

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I didn't say it did. We were talking about the rote bashing of 'early digital' that goes on. I was referring to the fact that the main documented 'flaw' of early CD practice was failure to use dither in production steps. The effects of truncation would be audible on very low level portions of the audio -- like fadeouts --if you are listening very closely (e.g. headphones). Of course, it was not an inherent flaw in the technology...it was an error by commercial production 'engineers' who didn't know better, called out by real engineers Lipshitz and Vanderkooy , who did, early on.
I didn't say you did. I was just responding to Perpendicular's post. I think we are on the same page with "markshan's definition of the term "musical". I agree with you as well. So much audiophile crap out there that is just sickening to see/watch. I am still waiting for a logical justification/explanation for how a fancy audiophile cable "improves" the sound. In any case, I humbly suggest we drop it and take it up elsewhere if you like and let hobiedog's thread continue.
 

markshan

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Is that what you think? When I wrote that descriptors like 'fast' and 'musical' for subwoofers were so much audiophile fluffery, I wasn't aware whether you in particular had used the word 'musical'. I wasn't thinking of you or your posts at all. I was simply calling up the two fluffy audiophile terms that have shown up drearily like clockwork in nearly every subwoofer discussion or review I've ever read.
I didn't take it personally. I do believe that "musical" is a perfectly valid term, even if an abstract one.
 

hobie1dog

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Let me post a link to a great article written by one of the world's best subwoofer designers, Dan Wiggins


Since the term musical is being discussed here, there is a myth that smaller diameter woofers are "tighter, faster,etc. than larger diameter woofers which is not necessarily the case, it is all about the inductance of the driver. This article explains it all. I highly suggest everyone read it.
 

ar surround

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I guess this thread is about subwoofers in a home audio system, but I'd like to give an example of how poor execution of a subwoofer in an audio system is a disaster. My car has a JBL Premium Audio system which includes a subwoofer. The performance of the system is such that there is a definite "hole" in the audio spectrum between the main speakers and the subwoofer. So much so that there is either very little bass or booming bass but nothing in between. I suspect that the "hole" makes the overall system sound poor...The only thing "premium" about the system is the price.
 
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jhw59

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This is an interesting thread. I also have an original Sunfire true signature sub that I use in my ht setu. It hums occasionally and so am considering sending it to Bill but I wonder if I should just pickup a new SVS and sell the Carver? Opinions appreciated. I use a SVS (tower model) in my 2 channel rig but it may have to go soon as the WAF is EXTREMELY negative because it sits in the living room. The life of an audiophile.
 

markshan

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I guess this thread is about subwoofers in a home audio system, but I'd like to give an example of how poor execution of a subwoofer in an audio system is a disaster. My car has a JBL Premium Audio system which includes a subwoofer. The performance of the system is such that there is a definite "hole" in the audio spectrum between the main speakers and the subwoofer. So much so that there is either very little bass or booming bass but nothing in between. I suspect that the "hole" makes the overall system sound poor...The only thing "premium" about the system is the price.
Home or car, proper integration is paramount.
 

LuvMyQuad

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This is an interesting thread. I also have an original Sunfire true signature sub that I use in my ht setu. It hums occasionally and so am considering sending it to Bill but I wonder if I should just pickup a new SVS and sell the Carver? Opinions appreciated. I use a SVS (tower model) in my 2 channel rig but it may have to go soon as the WAF is EXTREMELY negative because it sits in the living room. The life of an audiophile.
I think it comes down to what you can get for $300 or so, which is the approximate cost of the refurbish job to the Sunfire.

For me its worth it. I don't think I can find the kind of performance the Sunfire provides in a reasonably sized package for $300.

Besides, its a classic design. Like a Phase Linear 400, an Advent speaker, a Dhalquist DQ-10...
 

LuvMyQuad

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So three weeks or so later and I have my Sunfire sub amp plate back from Bill Flannery's Vintage Audio in Washington State. It went smooth as silk. USP took 5 days to transport it to Washington and 5 days back. Bill apparently serviced it as soon as he got it in and completed it in 3 days. He called me personally to tell me it was complete and to tell me what he found.

The level control had fractured internally. He replaces all three rotary controls anyway as part of the service. He noted that an update to the preamp regulator stage was never installed and he installed it at no additional charge. He installed his own mod solution to prevent hum, also at no additional charge. Every capacitor in the unit, along with a handful of resistors were replaced. It was tested and burned in for 24 hours. He said that his testing revealed that when it was completed, it was actually quieter than most samples. Along with the unit he packed a list of components that were replaced along with what he found regarding the diagnostics.

Once I received it, it was a relatively simple matter to install it back into the sub. It now works better than it ever did, and is exceedingly quiet.

I considered re-assembling it by swapping out the drivers left for right so I could locate the sub to the right side of my equipment and keep the amp plate facing left. That can't be done because there is no clearance between one of the PC boards and the active driver, so I had to re-assemble it as it originally was.

If you are on the fence about sending your Sunfire equipment to him for overhaul I would have to say the man seems very honest, professional, courteous, and knowledgeable. I would recommend his services to anyone.
 
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jhw59

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So three weeks or so later and I have my Sunfire sub amp plate back from Bill Flannery's Vintage Audio in Washington State. It went smooth as silk. USP took 5 days to transport it Washington and 5 days back. Bill apparently serviced it as soon as he got it in and completed it in 3 days. He called me personally to tell me it was complete and to tell me what he found.

The level control had fractured internally. He replaces all three rotary controls anyway as part of the service. He noted that an update to the preamp regulator stage was never installed and he installed it at no additional charge. He installed his own mod solution to prevent hum, also at no additional charge. Every capacitor in the unit, along with a handful of resistors were replaced. It was tested and burned in for 24 hours. He said that his testing revealed that when it was completed, it was actually quieter than most samples. Along with the unit he packed a list of components that were replaced along with what he found regarding the diagnostics.

Once I received it, it was a relatively simple matter to install it back into the sub. It now works better than it ever did, and is exceedingly quiet.

I considered re-assembling it by swapping out the drivers left for right so I could locate the sub to the right side of my equipment and keep the amp plate facing left. That can't be done because there is no clearance between one of the PC boards and the active driver, so I had to re-assemble it as it originally was.

If you are on the fence about sending your Sunfire equipment to him for overhaul I would have to say the man seems very honest, professional, courteous, and knowledgeable. I would recommend his services to anyone.
Thanks for the update. I think I may send my amp plate to Bill.
 

Dolby CP-200

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JBL 4645 diy home made to right of the room its fitted with 2240 and I've managed to get it tweaked with crossover and PEQ to be satisfactory. Had the diy JBL 4645 for 21 years and its still rumbling.

JBL 4645C left of the room again with crossover and PEQ I can get it to boldly go low.
Behringer NX3000 powers the two 18".

Recently acquired JBL 4782 TCB triple chamber bandpass with aid of the crossover and PEQ the pair vibrate the brick wall between the room and the kitchen. Everything has limiations as long as I don't run them at darft SPL levels with music or films then they keep on performing. I could have gotten x4 of these as they where selling ultra cheap. They almost busted my back getting each one of these up two floors. Heavy duty cabinet box build that weighs a bit. I don't want brag anymore they outdo the speakers on the TV I leave it at that.

Behringer inuke3000 powers the two JBL TCB

x3 Behringer DCX2496 one used for the subs other two used for the five front channels and bass shakers for the seats.

58542927_10157022138625149_4407735665265999872_n.jpg


JBL sub.jpg

With the microphone up close to one of the JBL 4782 TCB large ports and after some tuning to get the response low as it can possible go?

A few smaller JBL subs 12" GTO1202 at the back of the room. I given some thought of placing one of the TCB at the back of the room.

x3 JBL SB-2 that I run one of them with JBL control 1 for below underneath seating surround. SB-2 are best when positioned in corners against three boundaries wall and ceiling or wall and floor. All three are in good condition at very cheap price for all three.
48971572_10156746065120149_8557546449779294208_n.jpg



Godzilla (1998) DVD has been film of the week as sub bass does matter. :D
_MG_6671 - Edited.jpg


 
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