Looking for 16 rpm

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Hello I have a 16 RPMrecord I have never seen one,I was curious as to what is the difference from other LP's

Half the fidelity and twice the time, the same as on half-speed reel to reel.
The exception is Half-Speed-Mastered LP's which are DOUBLE the fidelity and the SAME playing time as both the disc AND the tape made therefrom run at half speed. This gives the cutter more time to engrave the material, and with 1/4 of the amplifier power used, there's no clipping and the top end comes out real clean.

The tradeoff is the bass however. With cutterheads only going down to 14 or 15 Hz or so, the 20-20,000 Hz signal is now 10,10,000Hz, so there's all kinds of headroom now, but the bass is squashed.

The only way they get around that is the handful of 2/3rds mastered titles that still say half-speed mastered that they tried in the early 80's on DMM as an experiment. They used the old MUZAK mastering decks that run 22.5 IPS instead of 30 (or 11.25 instead of 15) and ran their cutting lathe at 25 RPM (the old Talking Book speed in the 30's was 24 so that's close enough).

Which Means that the original 20Hz bottom end that became 10Hz at half speed is now 15 Hz - back within the range of the cutterhead so no bass problems.

They also tried 2/3rds cutting WITHOUT DMM for a couple of years just before CD-4 died and got the same improvement in the bass fidelity. They couldn't do anything about the top end though because it had to be limited not to go above 15 KHz the same as FM Stereo for pretty much the same reason: baseband audio would have bled into the supersonic carrier wave.

More infor here: http://bsnpubs.websitetoolbox.com/post/Starting-a-16-RPM-Discography-4693295

and here: http://bsnpubs.websitetoolbox.com/post?id=84340

As far as recording one into the computer when you don't have a 33 turntable, slide down that second thread about halfway and I list a number of work-arounds you can use as long as you only do it once per disc.
 
16 rpm should have been for spoken word only, where fidelity really doesn't matter anyway. I have a German Telefunken 10" up north with Thomas Mann reciting his poetry and writings, or whatever it was the guy did, it's been a long, LONG time since it was played....:D. Very infrequently I'll come across a 16rpm single or Lp, but I no longer have (nor want) the capacity to play that speed, so they mean nothing to me beyond their status as curios.

ED :)
 
Hi Klaus, I realise that your message about 16rpm lps was posted a long time ago. However, if you are still interested, I have the very first commercial LP to be released on 16 rpm on the Top Rank label from 1959 Edgar Allan Poe 'Tales Of Terror' read by Nelson Olmsted. Though I don't have any equipment to test it on, it looks to be in pristine, probably unplayed condition in an immaculate sleeve. I want to sell it. If you are interested, please contact me directly on [email protected] Best regards

Anthony
 
I have the very first commercial LP to be released on 16 rpm on the Top Rank label from 1959...Anthony
Just FYI. Although that may have been the first 16 RPM release on the Top Rank label, rest assured the mid-50's were chock full of commercial 16 RPM releases from Dancetime, Audio Book Corporation, Lingua-Phone, Prestige Jazz, Vogue and on and on and on. 1959 would actually have been very close to the end of 16 RPM production, as very few commercial LP-16's were made after the `60's dawned.
 
I have a boxed set of the complete works of Mozart in 16 2/3 rpm and it sounds better than any of the other sets I have in 33 1/3 or 45 rpm.

OK, I'm lying.

:D

Doug
 
Just FYI. Although that may have been the first 16 RPM release on the Top Rank label, rest assured the mid-50's were chock full of commercial 16 RPM releases from Dancetime, Audio Book Corporation, Lingua-Phone, Prestige Jazz, Vogue and on and on and on. 1959 would actually have been very close to the end of 16 RPM production, as very few commercial LP-16's were made after the `60's dawned.

Thanks for putting me straight on that. I too readily believed the company blurb on the sleeve!
 
Here's a video clip of a familiar Herb Alpert hit being played from a South African 16 2/3 LP. Sounds not bad at all to me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2faYKXSKCRU

And if you want a real freakout, here's a clip of an 8 1/3 RPM (!!) talking-book record. While the fidelity would probably not be sufficient for music, it's certainly good enough for this purpose...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=13bTMRtGOaA

I have one of those Will Kennedy Dancetime 16 2/3 LPS, though I no longer have a player for that speed. (Mine was labeled as some kind of premium or giveaway item for Magnavox dealers.) Played at 33 1/3, it sounds almost exactly like the sped-up dance band music Benny Hill used to use behind his comedy sketches.

When I was a kid, I did have a 4-speed player with 16 2/3 included, and it immediately "demystified" the secret of the Chipmunks. Play an old Chipmunks LP at 16, and you hear David Seville (Ross Bagdasarian, Senior) overdubbing his own voice as he v-e-r-y s-l-o-w-l-y sang three-part harmonies with himself!
 
Here's a video clip of a familiar Herb Alpert hit being played from a South African 16 2/3 LP. Sounds not bad at all to me.
and all the other oft-quoted videos of 16 RPM

Domenico Modugno of Volare fame
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPVx69Uueg8

Jim Reeves
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jOCi2WTCbrk

Greatest Hits (French, 1954)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YO7qKgwiGHw

Another volume
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xYO7BZskko0
8 1/3 RPM (!!) talking-book record. While the fidelity would probably not be sufficient for music...
Ummmmm....you were saying?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5_VoAtzmV8o

OK that's technically 4 RPM not 3 (mastered 4X speed at 16) but you get the idea.
....it's certainly good enough for this purpose...
The other one - played at 16 and downsampled later.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HnjuBZ1qVsU

Notice the absence of bass. Trouble with the Newsweek is - even though it's real-time playback - he variacs the speed down but increases the current while doing so - overheating the motor.

I have one of those Will Kennedy Dancetime 16 2/3 LPS, though I no longer have a player for that speed. (Mine was labeled as some kind of premium or giveaway item for Magnavox dealers.) Play an old Chipmunks LP at 16, and you hear David Seville (Ross Bagdasarian, Senior) overdubbing his own voice as he v-e-r-y s-l-o-w-l-y sang three-part harmonies with himself!
Just like all the old Bozo the Clown 78's like this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RY5wNGcAMyk.

In the days before tape (1946) they'd cut the main regular-speed voices, effects and music at the regular 33 RPM like any other sixteen-inch transcription master which was pantographed onto a 10-inch 78 RPM cut residing on a 12-inch lacquer to be processed and pressed into a normal 78 RPM disc.

For the half-speed and 2/3 speed voices (for example) they'd play the first half at 16 RPM or 24 RPM like a British talking book from the 20's - and the other people would fill in their (usually brief) parts over the top of it and that would end up to be the master.

If you wonder why the half-speed and 2/3rds speed portions are so brief - listen carefully to the quality. Bass disappears and the noise level quadruples. They try and hide it with underscore music - but you can still tell.

Remember this was four years before Les Paul had his big hit with How High the Moon and it's twelve overdubs doing it the same way.

Now of course in the early 50's once tape came in - life was a lot easier because there were a lot more tape speeds available than there were disc speeds. You still had to dub back and forth from one machine to the next mono-to-mono - but at least you didn't introduce all the noise you would from one lacquer to the next.

In 1954 after two-track tape came in - then you still needed two machines but the sound was cleaner. Record the orchestra by itself, rewind and then record the normal speed vocals on the other track, rewind - mix those two onto one track of ANOTHER two track tape - rewind, play the tape at half speed and then add in the half speed voices on the other track, speed back up to full speed and mix down to mono.

Optical audio film was a different story - there were any number of available speeds as long as they matched up with the gear ratio of a three phase 1200 RPM motor (or two-phase 1800 RPM) to move the optical film past the optical recording heads - e.g. after the quasi-isolated music angles (think of photographic angles i e closeup, medium shot, long shot) in a phonographic sense) had been recorded at the normal 90 ft/min speed for 35MM camera or sound film - the Munchkin vocals from the Wizard of Oz were recorded at 55 feet-per-minute - roughly 60% of the normal speed - on ITS own film - and then the results were combined later.

These discrete phonographic angles are the main reason why - before the official advent of multitracking was possible - movies from the 30's and 40's can be remixed to Stereo for a modern DVD - even though - often - many isolated angles are missing or destroyed - so all they can do is lay the mono composite up against whatever iso'd angles they find - and then try and pan them across the stereo stage in something resembling a pleasing effect.

I make my music engineering students every year go through the same training - which - in the modern days of 99 virtual tracks in Reason and Record they can diddle with on their laptops and (some) iPhones - they hate.

But then these are the guys who DON'T get downsized everytime the job market coughs or sneezes - and they call me back years later and say `You know that crap we hated to learn - some of it just saved my job''.
 
I had to laugh when some younger music fans were on another forum and couldn't figure out how the Chipmunks were created without Autotune. ("What did they use? Helium? Eunuchs??") and got the answer "Obviously, you kids have never horsed around with an old-fashioned tape recorder!"

There have also been speed-ups done using film tracks, especially in cartoons; Disney's Chip 'n' Dale come to mind, and an old Walter Lantz cartoon in which Woody Woodpecker gets chewed out by forest critters. It's sped-up until it's unintelligible, yet someone slowed it down and it actually is the appropriate dialogue; and the voice was that of Walter's wife Gracie. When Mel Blanc (in only about the first five or so cartoons), then Ben "Bugsy" Hardaway did Woody's voice, it was heavily sped up; when Gracie took over after 1950, she was sped up only about 10% and Woody's speech became more "natural" sounding.

I read not long ago that the original "Chipmunk Song" was recorded on multiple 35mm magnetic film tracks; one each for Alvin, Simon, Theodore, David Seville, and the orchestral backup. They were then synced-up on a multi-gang synchronizer of the type common in film editing, and mixed to tape. A few years ago the original component tracks were found in a warehouse and used to create a first-ever true stereo mix of the song.
 
I read not long ago that the original "Chipmunk Song" was recorded on multiple 35mm magnetic film tracks; one each for Alvin, Simon, Theodore, David Seville, and the orchestral backup.
IIRC that's the remake a year later (1959).
They were then synced-up on a multi-gang synchronizer of the type common in film editing, and mixed to tape. A few years ago the original component tracks were found in a warehouse and used to create a first-ever true stereo mix of the song.
What I think you're referring to was the re-discovery of the original 1958 twin-track quarter-inch tapes I discuss in the earlier post. A number of forums (Steve Hoffman, Audio Karma, BSNPubs etc) all have discussions on this - and what is more or less mutually agreed upon is either A) the music was recorded twin track (i.e so-called ``binaural'' - not stereo) - then that was mixed to mono and flown over to the second twin track - David's normal-speed vocal was added onto the second track - those three were mixed to mono and flown back over to the first recorder - David-as-Alvin added that vocal onto the second track - mixed it down flew it back over to the second deck to add in David-as-Simon and then the process repeated back to the first deck to add in David-as-Theodore - or B) the music was recorded monaurally and the above process was completed sans one step.

As far as mag film, there'd be absolutely no way that the original production elements would be on either single-track 35MM mag with a balance stripe (as used in dialogue) or on 3-or-4-track full-coat 35MM mag. Liberty Records absolutely did NOT have the money to be recording on 3-track or 4-track 35MM mag in a major Hollywood soundstage `just for some little novelty record'.

Look up `35MM 4 track mag' under - say - Mercury Living Presence/C. Robert Fine and Wilma Cozart Fine and see what a 4-track full-coat mag session cost in the late 50's compared to the same session cut to tape - even 3-track tape (which was the most advanced there was at the time unless you count Tom Dowd at Atlantic - recording as early as 1957 on the only 8-track 1-inch in existence outside of Les Paul's house).

Dowd was getting in so much trouble over his 8-track that eventually he had to give up his ``spare'' 3-track decks to other producers in other studios so the workload could be distributed and track strictly to 8-track.

In the beginning he was using it as two 3-track decks and a stereo deck - but by 1958 he was having to develop all manner of recording and bouncing tricks we still use today just to be able to justify the near-film cost of his sessions.

Another possible scenario is that the track COULD have been recorded at Columbia Nashville - or maybe Western Recorders on Sunset and Vine - or Radio Recorders - all of which had half-inch 3-track by 1958 - and then it would be a simple track-and-rewind affair - recording three tracks of orchestra - flying that over to mono on a second deck, adding in David as himself (maybe with a third track for some of the punch-ins you can hear if you listen close) and then repeating the process adding in David-as-Alvin, David-as-Simon and David-as-Theodore.

That way instead of having a half-a-dozen elements as you would in a two-track session (rare in those days) you'd only have three or four elements in a 3-track session (not EXACTLY common but not that rare either) - all of which can be re-synched a lot easier than a half-a-dozen twin-tracks - beginning with the orchestra and then timing the four vocal tracks to that with hundreds of little digital edits.

But I still think there'd be absolutely no way that some little bitty comedy act was going to be given the money by not even a major label to go record multitrack mags at a Hollywood film studio for a novelty record. Especially since they wouldn't have known making it that it was going to be the perennial hit it has become.
 
Whatever. There's an interview with Les Paul wherein he claims that he and Howard Hughes (whom he supposedly didn't recognize but had befriended anyway) walked in on the "Chipmunk Song" session, took over, and produced the record themselves. Maybe that's plausible too.

As far as I know, Liberty had no kind of stereo or binaural facilities at that time; borne out by Martin Denny's remarks that he and his group had to record "Exotica" all over again in stereo after-the-fact to fulfill dealers' demands for a stereo version that did not exist.

It isn't necessary to involve a whole Hollywood studio to record on film; the L.A. area certainly had many film labs and editing shops set up to service the literally hundreds of small production companies making very low-budget TV shows, industrial and educational films, cartoons, and commercials. It's possible that the original elements were recorded on tape, "dubbed" to film by one of these companies, then synched and mixed on film. The edge numbering of the film would make this quick and easy.
 
AFAIK, Liberty had no kind of stereo or binaural facilities at that time; borne out by Martin Denny's remarks that he and his group had to record "Exotica" all over again in stereo after-the-fact to fulfill dealers' demands for a stereo version that did not exist.
There's a very good reason for that. The monaural Exotica was recorded in a RADIO STUDIO and in the Fall of `56. The stereo version wasn't recorded until almost a year later, by which time twin-track had begun to be installed at a number of other studios - hence the 1959 remake of the Chipmunk Song being in stereo - and the original binaural or half-inch series of work parts being located, re-synched and remixed.

By 1956, major labels on the West Coast (RCA, Columbia et al) weren't interested in stereo or binaural, even though everybody had at least one back in Midtown (Manhattan) - ostensibly to capture the very best of classical music sessions.

Therefore it fell to the next-in-line studios. Reports differ as to whether the first twin track in Hollywood was installed at Capitol Studios upon its' completion in 1956 or at Decca Records on Melrose upon its' remodeling that same year.

In 1957, United Recorders (later United/Western Recorders, famous for its' Beach Boys sessions) was a prime example, where owner-engineer Bill Putnam saw the writing on the wall and installed a twin-track recorder and a binaural mixing board with his own money. Shortly before or afterward, owner-engineer Thorne Nogar installed one at Radio Recorders.

Stereo/binaural sessions at both Capitol and Decca were rare until at least 1958, by which time twin-track machines had begun to be installed all over Hollywood. But by Summer, 1957 since both Nogar and Putnam were putting money out of their own pocket for not only the twin-track deck itself but also for the mixdown sessions necessary for the production of a mono record - both men subsequently had stockpiled huge libraries of twin track tape from the most lucrative acts of the late `50's.

By the early 60's when stereo began to take off, both men scored lucrative deals with the major labels for re-issuing what amounted to twin-track work parts and the cost of producing them - which financed yet ANOTHER renovation in both studios in the Summer of 1962.
It isn't necessary to involve a whole Hollywood studio to record on film; the L.A. area certainly had many film labs and editing shops set up to service the literally hundreds of small production companies making very low-budget TV shows, industrial and educational films, cartoons, and commercials.
But again - by the late 50's - especially for the small and/or field productions - the use of Nagra (pilot-sync quarter-inch reel-to-reel decks - either single track and sync on 2 or twin-track and sync in center).
It's possible that the original elements were recorded on tape, "dubbed" to film by one of these companies, then synched and mixed on film.
I still doubt that - Les Paul's involvement notwithstanding - that the session was recorded - or dubbed - to film - mag or otherwise - simply because if you HAD to transfer to film - you'd need sync.

On a twin-track recorder, you only have one track if you need the other for sync. (Center-track sync was still a few years away yet.) Therefore you'd be back to flying elements across to that recorder and/or adding in subsequent elements live over the top of it, flying it back over here to this recorder - doing the same - and over and over and over

Although if the story of Paul's involvement IS true - then that would make sense as well because Capitol Records - with whom Les Paul had been affiliated before their acquisition of Liberty and United Artists Records - could have had the session moved to Capitol Studio A where their first twin-track had been installed in 1956 - used ``as an afterthought'' without any specially dedicated stereo engineer or anything - to cover a Nat King Cole album - owing to the fact that the first two songs of the first session (of four songs in a three hour session) never made it to the twin-track due to a patching problem which was corrected for the last two songs of the first session and the four subsequent sessions.

StereoScout over on the Stereo Sync board http://bsnpubs.websitetoolbox.com/?forum=6491 would have more in-depth research at his fingertips regarding both early stereo in Hollywood as well as session tracking information.
 
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